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Old 24-08-2006, 08:12   #61
ColinP
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haineshisway - if you don't want to be banned from another forum then I suggest you tone it down a little and stop harrassing other members.
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:16   #62
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Well this thread is going on and on, and we have got to the "I have made my own movies" stage.

I haven't made any movies, but I did work in the BBC TK dept for a while (many years ago), and watched many of the experts colour balance old movies. They sat and watched the movie with a little "colour balance joystick" in their hand, dynamically balancing the colour of the scenes all the way through the movie before it was aired. The film did not age evenly, but the colours were usually different at each shot change. There were no "reference prints", they would have aged too. This process was done purely by eye, they knew the correct colour for skin tones and adjusted accordingly. I wasn't good enough to do their job, but I could have done it better than the guys who balanced this DVD. It is too yellow! but the detail and cropping is much better than any previous releases (and they were too blue). If I had broadcast a picture this yellow, network control would have been on the phone to me in a flash and told me to correct it.

This thread is a bit pointless as the whole film is clearly too yellow, the whole world knows it, I don't particularly care about the sky colour, but I do see a lot of actors with jaundice. (alternatively maybe all the actors were drunks and about to suffer liver failure)

I can understand haineshisway getting a bit frustrated as so many are saying the colour is GOOD when it clearly ISN'T, but he shouldn't be having a pop at the mods.

A couple of quotes from beaver
"Anyhow, I do think the color is "wrong." Which is not to say that the old color was "right." But they have really turned up the yellow, and I think too far."

"As an aside, for about ten years, in the 1980s, all the 35mm prints in distribution were ORANGE -- with green skies."

"On Gary's new page, some of the new frames don't look so bad. I don't know what is "correct," but comparing the two versions on Gary's page, I would opt for something in between the old and the new."

I agree with them ...........

Old too Blue (add some yellow) ..................... New (whoa not that much)

Last edited by pjclark1; 24-08-2006 at 08:51. Reason: can't spell
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:18   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinP
haineshisway - if you don't want to be banned from another forum then I suggest you tone it down a little and stop harrassing other members.
You know what - if you think I'm harrassing members then ban me. Ban me now. But before you do, please point out an instance of harrassing members, when it hasn't been in response to them coming after me. Oh, did we forget that part?

Especially, as I have asked both John and Mike to do, please point out one instance within this thread where I have harrassed ANYONE!

Do it. You can't because I haven't. So, feel free to ban me because this is total and utter BS and everyone will see it for what it is and then you can all clap yourselves on the back and be happy as clams.
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:21   #64
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Firstly, I don't have to prove anything - I can pick and chose who I want to post here if I like.

You are welcome to continue posting but if you keep that attitude up then I'm more than happy to lock you out of here without any hesitation.
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:23   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch_fan
Were there ever any Eastmancolor prints produced of The Searchers? If yes, then why do the credits specifically read in Technicolor?



Doesn't change the fact that Ford and Hoch were obviously designing the film/shots expecting Technicolor.
To quote Tag Gallagher in his book "John Ford. The Man And His Films" to illustrate the importance of the Technicolor look to the film:
Technicolor is itself a medium better suited to mythication than to realism and The movie itself, with each bright Technicolor frame organized into painterly, definitive portraiture, expressionistically composed and lighted, and with the yearning tune "Laurina" is not realistic but symbol of reality, everything is saturated in myth, everything is commentary upon myth



Fine but other colour Vistavision films on DVD at least approach the look of dye transfer prints. The new DVD of The Searchers doesn't and it hurts the picture imo.
What hitch-fan said.
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:28   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinP
Firstly, I don't have to prove anything - I can pick and chose who I want to post here if I like.

You are welcome to continue posting but if you keep that attitude up then I'm more than happy to lock you out of here without any hesitation.
Oh, thank you for explaining it to me. So, you can make accusations and then you don't have to back them up with facts. I see. What a fine world we live in. You don't have to ban me, Colin. I don't need to post in a place where people can accuse people of things and then not have to back it up with some evidence. I do understand that you can't back it up with evidence and that must be terribly inconvenient for you.



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Old 24-08-2006, 08:34   #67
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I have better things to do than trawl this thread to satisfy your need for an explanation. Your attitude stinks and your aggressive posturing is exactly what gets people's backs up.

The very fact you need to start bringing posts from another forum over to this is enough 'evidence' I need to see that you're unable to let something lie and constantly feel the need to badger users who don't share your views. This particular forum doesn't need your kind of posturing and while I'm not giving you the satisfaction of being banned so you can consider yourself as some kind of martyr, I either want you to calm down or don't bother posting in the future.
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Old 24-08-2006, 08:56   #68
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There is a technical difference between "in Technicolor" or simply "Technicolor" and "Color by Technicolor," which represents the Eastman Color origination in the laboratory's history. There is little doubt that some of the finest dye transfer prints from either era came from the London plant, which also seems to have in some way stemmed the tide (no pun intended) with a lower EK fade rate than any of the lab's counterparts. We've always made the assumption that it must be the Thames water.

The three-strip era gave cinematographers a much greater pallette with which to work, with far greater control than with Eastman.

The Searchers, as a beautifully shot, but admittedly early Eastman product, could look glorious in dye transfer, but also had its shortcomings.

Again, I don't believe that there is an argument about the level of blue in the skies and perfectly matching a DT print. But to attain those levels in video is a different matter, especially from dupe elements.

RAH
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Old 25-08-2006, 08:07   #69
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Not sure where to post this so I'll stick today's piece by Alex Cox in the Guardian about the Monument Valley showing of the Searchers in here.


http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/...857227,00.html

While reading through the posts in this thread, that line of Ethan Edwards about Mose Harper keeps running through my head: "Is that old goat still creepin' around ? Why'nt somebody bury 'im !" a great comic line, delivered with great affection
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Old 25-08-2006, 08:14   #70
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Bosque, as this is for discussion of the transfer, I've copied your post into the 'John Ford' thread here - I hope that's okay.
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Old 25-08-2006, 08:14   #71
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I used to read Video Watchdog and could never quite get my head around it when Tim Lucas came out with a line like "The colors on this VHS are muted compared to the midnite screening I saw back in 1973 ..."

D.
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Old 29-08-2006, 11:39   #72
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Just for fun, I overlayed the original Dvd (frame) picture on the new release.



I have cut the right hand side of the original out so you can compare for yourselves.
It's amazing how cropped the original was, also it appears to me to be darker, lacking in cloud detail as well as bluer.

Last edited by pjclark1; 29-08-2006 at 11:45.
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Old 29-08-2006, 16:08   #73
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More detail and brightness in the new DVD - more correct color in the old and anyone who doesn't see it is, I'm afraid, well, let's just say they either don't know what the film is supposed to look like or they just don't care. I don't know what "lacking in cloud detail" means - I see white white clouds in the old DVD - they lack as much detail as the rest of the old DVD - detail isn't the question - no one has said the old DVD has more detail. The question is color and it's obvious which DVD wins in THAT regard because in films printed in IB Technicolor skies do not look yellow/green. In fact, they don't look yellow/green in films printed in Eastman color unless those prints' color has started fading.
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Old 29-08-2006, 22:51   #74
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I hope that pjclark1 won't mind that I've borrowed his image for a trial modification in Photoshop:



I'll write a separate post to accompany the above illustration in a moment. This is my first time posting an image here and I don't want to lose it while I write the text
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Old 29-08-2006, 23:14   #75
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Back with text as promised. I've followed this thread, and similar threads on HTF, with interest. As stated above, I've borrowed pjclark1's image for a test modification in Photoshop. For the record, I am a professional photographer and Photoshop instructor. I have little knowledge of motion picture film lab work and techniques, so not all of the comments relayed by Mr Harris have been completely understood by me. I should also state that I've never seen an IB Tech print of the film, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of its appearance.

Seeing pjclark1's image (above) gave me the thought that I'd like to try some color correction work, simply as an experiment, to see what might be done to the image. If I wanted to spend more time, I could improve it; as it stands, it's got about 10 minutes of work in it. My goal was to make each side of the image look reasonably good, with natural and accurate color; while I altered each half of the image separately and made no attempt to match one half to the other, in the end I think they're a fairly close match to one another after all.

In Photoshop, one can select isolated areas of an image and color balance them as desired, with no effect on other areas. Is this possible in the software being used for motion picture color timing? That would make a major difference in the ability to remove blue from one area yet add it to another, for example. In my experiment here, I'll avoid detailed technical explanations, but basically I've made a few overall adjustments as well as other adjustments that were isolated to individual areas, or individual colors, within the frame. In the "new" version, I've shifted color balance away from yellow (= going toward blue) overall; reduced red cast in clouds; shifted sky to blue; shifted rocks toward red. In the "old" version, I've lightened the image overall, plus did a few other selective adjustments.

Judging simply from this image, both of the release versions have problems of their own. In the "old" version, the blue channel in blue sky areas hits level 255, meaning that there is no detail in the blue channel. The other areas were easy to lighten. The "new" version is too yellow overall, at least to my taste in color correction.

I can see where it would be time-consuming to perform these corrections to every scene. If individual components of the image can be adjusted in motion picture correction software, such as I've done to this frame in Photoshop, it would seem that it can be done, given enough time and effort. If adjustments can only be made to the entire frame overall, it would be extremely difficult to do well, if at all. However, I make these comments based only on this still image, since I have very little knowledge of what can be done in the motion picture realm.

Last edited by Danny Burk; 29-08-2006 at 23:18.
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Old 30-08-2006, 00:46   #76
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Mr. Burk,

You obviously understand the inner machinations of Photoshop, something that continuously confounds me.

You also have a great sense of correct color.

You've created an image that is not only satisfactory, but also tells the proper story.

There is a major difference between film and stills, and that involves traveling mattes, power windows, and other techniques that are beyond me. I merely count sprocket holes, and attempt to find 4 or 5 to the frame.

It would be helpful if you would post your image over at HTF, or permit me to do the same, which would also require the approval of the original poster.

While HHW and I continue to disagree on a number facts, inclusive of much of his last post, I would respectfully suggest that your work might just please both of us.

I've been on Mr. Burk's website and will undoubtedly be ordering some of his images, which are of the highest quality.

It appears that his talents could easily be used in Burbank.

RAH

Last edited by Robert Harris; 30-08-2006 at 01:15.
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Old 30-08-2006, 04:20   #77
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RAH -

Thanks for your thoughts and kind comments...much appreciated. I'm glad you found my experiment interesting. I consider the identification and correction of color casts to be a most important component of good Photoshop technique, and I've used the same steps on the SEARCHERS image as I'd do to prepare one of my own photographs for printing.

I'm not familiar with traveling mattes nor power windows, but I suspect that there are similar techniques in Photoshop that go by other names. For example, a "mask" in PS is used to restrict a given correction to the chosen area of an image. This chosen area can be selected by its physical location in the image (for example, all of the sky, a group of people, or just one person from that group), by tonality or color anywhere within the image (for example, all blues of a given shade, or all red rock), and so forth. After selecting the desired areas, a mask is created so that corrections apply only to those desired areas; the amount of correction can differ from one area to another by varying opacity of the mask, and various methods are available to shift or correct hue, tonality, and saturation.

By all means, you have my OK to post the image at HTF; Mr Clark, are you agreeable as well?

I'll forward a separate reply to your email, thanks.
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Old 30-08-2006, 05:31   #78
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And I will more than respectfully agree with Mr. Harris - the photoshopped image pleases me very much indeed - had the new DVD looked like that I think none of us who have a problem with it as it stands would have said boo. Great job, Mr. Burk, and as Mr. Harris said, I wish they'd hire you in beautiful downtown Burbank. Despite the lack of detail on the left side, I still perfer that color a bit, although what you've done to the right side is terrific, too. Bravo. Now if you can go color correct the Remington, that would be nice, too. :-)
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Old 30-08-2006, 05:33   #79
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Actually, as I look at it more, the right side image is really nice.
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Old 30-08-2006, 08:06   #80
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Mr Burk's image certainly looks good. Judging from my memory, the colour seems to be very much how the original 35mm Technicolor prints looked.
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