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Old 07-06-2008, 09:24   #41
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I've re-ordered your paragraphs to show that you have once again defeated your own argument.

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It'll only be available if their reading is controlled by nutjobs who mistake advisory ratings for cast-iron restrictions. Any sensible parent will consider whether than age range falls in with their child's reading development, and whether they feel their child is emotionally mature enough to read it. As I keep saying, it's an aid to making informed choices, *not* a restriction.
.....
And as someone esle has rightly said, legislation creep would make these classifications mandatory after a while.
Whoops! THAT is the point.
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As you're unaware of the content of Forever, I'll just briefly summarise it, though. Judy Blume's daughter complained to her mum that every book she read that had teen sex in it ended badly - the moral being teens shouldn't have sex and should wait until they're married and all that. So her mum wrote a book for her that didn't demonise teen sex. Perhaps not something you'd want to give to a five year old. And while sans age ratings, someone who is too young for it is more than likely to decide that on their own when the get bored after a few pages, age ratings will help the parents, etc. buying books to recognise earlier that it's not especially suitable, rather than potentially wasting money on it too early.
And that is excellent.

Look, schools give the mechanics of sex education. Teenagers, especially boys I think, have difficulty discussing sex with their parents. How much better if sex were not hidden behind an 18 classification but was available in the context of a story? Isn't that better. Deal with the problems of girls being put under pressure to drop their knickers before they're ready?

But oh no. Let's hide this behind a clssification system so an avenue of sex education beyond the mechanics is unavailable to teenagers. Idiocy.

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With all due respect, that's utter balls. Writers will write the same books they always have done, and be under the same conditions they always have been.
No. They'll be subject to a rigid classification system that'll get inexorably more restrictive. And the worse thing is, it'll be the publishers themselves who'll implement this in the worst possible way in order to protect themselves.
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If you think, by the way, that writers don't already target their books at certain ages, you're very naive. Sure, you get writers who just bang a book out and see where it falls, but you also do already get writers who deliberately consider whether the particular book they're writing is for young children, or teens, etc.
You really didn't read what I wrote properly did you?
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All that age advisories would do is make this more apparent to parents.
It won't do any such thing. And it'll only restrict the reading growth of those more able to progress to higher reading levels. You yourself accept that they'll become mandatory. If that won't stifle reading I have no idea what will.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:26   #42
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I've re-ordered your paragraphs to show that you have once again defeated your own argument.
Until you read what I write rather than what you think I write, I'm not going to be carrying on this discussion any longer.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:32   #43
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Look, schools give the mechanics of sex education. Teenagers, especially boys I think, have difficulty discussing sex with their parents. How much better if sex were not hidden behind an 18 classification but was available in the context of a story? Isn't that better. Deal with the problems of girls being put under pressure to drop their knickers before they're ready?

But oh no. Let's hide this behind a clssification system so an avenue of sex education beyond the mechanics is unavailable to teenagers. Idiocy.

i think both of us have said this sort of books is the sort that is aimed at teenagers and still would be. Its sex books which are just "debbie does dallas (and then texas) that would be 18 rated. and serial killer types where they describe extreme acts of torture (book i bought in tescos last week had a man getting disembowled and torured over a few days, )

do you think that no films should be classified? that kids would just get bored of horror/sex flicks and so turn off (or would they watch to the end and get nightmares/confused messages)
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:38   #44
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Who's going to decide this age thing, anyway? That's my biggest objection? And on what grounds? I discovered James Herbert at around 11, and that was almost certainly too young according the 'the book Man', but I loved it and probably wouldn't be the avid reader I am today if it weren't for the likes of The Rats and The Fog teacing me that, hey, books can show you things you won't see anywhere else.
When I was a young 'un, if my dad took my brother to see a 15 certificate movie I could never go. I remember that I would always feel I was missing out and would just buy the screenplay novelisation (where available) from my local newsagent and read that, because there were no age ratings on books!

It's part of what made me an avid reader.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:33   #45
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i think both of us have said this sort of books is the sort that is aimed at teenagers and still would be. Its sex books which are just "debbie does dallas (and then texas) that would be 18 rated. and serial killer types where they describe extreme acts of torture (book i bought in tescos last week had a man getting disembowled and torured over a few days, )

do you think that no films should be classified? that kids would just get bored of horror/sex flicks and so turn off (or would they watch to the end and get nightmares/confused messages)
Lets take this one step further and say this book should be banned.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:36   #46
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Lets take this one step further and say this book should be banned.
or just resticted to 18 + perhaps. Like violent movies would be or violent games.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:46   #47
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or just resticted to 18 + perhaps. Like violent movies would be or violent games.
Or the entire section could just be removed from the book.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:48   #48
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to make it suitable for all ages?

not sure how that works with police procedural books

so now we have certain things should NOT be available to any age, as oppposed to everyone should be able to read everything.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:53   #49
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Hey, I'm not claiming it would work but to ensure a book had maximum mass appeal then that may well be the outcome of any attempt at classification.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:57   #50
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Hey, I'm not claiming it would work but to ensure a book had maximum mass appeal then that may well be the outcome of any attempt at classification.

not sure any author like patricia cornwall or kathy reichs would say they wanted their books read by kids. they do fine without the kids market.

at present the only guide to age is what section the book is in in the book store/library. Which assumes it allways gets put in the right place. i've found tons of inappropriate books in the wrong place in charity shops and put them back in the adult fiction section.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:58   #51
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At the moment, I presume authors and publishers know which market they are aiming books at, and libraries/book stores do a good job of categorising books on genre anyway.

I don't know how anyone else chooses which book to read, but I see which section it is in in the book shop, and the read the blurb on the back - what needs changing?
I can't remember a time when it was ever different.

Only the reader knows if a book is right for them, and they can only be given the skills to judge that in the way they are brought up by their parents.


An age rating just seems so nonsensical - there are plenty of adults out there who would be confused by your average Enid Blyton mystery, and shocked by the antics in Fungus the Bogeyman.
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:07   #52
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Mary whitehose would be coming in her pants
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:09   #53
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Was that misspell intentional
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:16   #54
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nope but i wish that it had been :P
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:28   #55
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Good point about age classifications encouraging studios (or publishers) to sanitise material for certain ratings. It's also worth considering that many cinema and video chains in the US won't show or stock films unless they're rated R or below. It's quite conceivable that some book shops might either refuse to stock books put into a "porn" category or stick them in a special adults only section. Jilly Cooper for example basically writes porn. One of her recent books, set in a school, raised Private Eye's eyebrows for its rampant depictions of underage sex. God knows what a book rating system would make of that.
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:39   #56
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I wouldn't say she wrote porn. its graphic but its not exactly rocks getting off type stuff. and the sex is probably 1% of the writing.

i did think her last one was pretty near the nuckle with the teen sex thing - it wasn;t that it was about underage kids having sex with each other, but describing the private parts of a 13 year old girl seemed a bit sick, as did the school teachers having sex with kids alot. it was seriously weird stuff, no idea why she wrote it. not her usual style at all.
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:43   #57
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Seems logical, if a few hundred years late. I'm a big fan of Richard Laymon novels, and anyone who's read a book by him (for example) will know it's a weird thought to imagine a 12 year old can legally read them.

I think the industry has been relying on the fact that impressionable youths don't bother reading.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:16   #58
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I can't see anything wrong with a small...

"Recommended for readers aged xx to yy" on children's books.

I haven't got kids and but my nephews and nieces all like reading, and it's a nightmare trying to find out what books are suitable for them!

I'm more concerned though about giving the 10 year a book too "young" for him than I am about exposing the 12 year old to graphic descriptions of genitalia...

...if there's anyone who's going to genuinely appreciate smut as a real art-form it's a pubescent boy...
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:53   #59
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Hey, I'm not claiming it would work but to ensure a book had maximum mass appeal then that may well be the outcome of any attempt at classification.
I have to agree. An 18 rating is the kiss of death for most films so they tend to get sanitised so as to to give the biggest possible audience. I know there are exceptions to this rule so no lists please.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:53   #60
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The sort of kids who read books are typically mature and sensible enough to handle adult themes in books and to know when somthing is truely not suitable.

Having said that I think my parents would have been horrified with some of the themes of the Mission Earth decology which I read aged 14/15...

Anyway, I have never heard anyone blaming violent books for making children into killers! LOL

The only good thing about ratings is that it might make it cool for kids to read (as long as they were allowed to read books with a higher age rating!).
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