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Old 11-01-2008, 03:23   #61
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Originally Posted by atmn78 View Post
If you have a problem then become veggie.
Poor attitude atmn! You can't give up because you don't get what you want. The answer isn't going veggie, it's making sure you get what you want and it's done right.

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How many of the people saying "if you can't buy free-range don't eat chicken" are wearing clothes or trainers that have been made by kids in sweatshops for pennies? Or is that okay as long as animals aren't suffering?
I find it unlikely that many would be buying stuff produced in sweatshops but it's not a fair comparison, as bad as a sweatshop might be it's not prison!

On the one hand I'm not that concerned about conditions, but I am concerned about the quality of the meat. I think it's pretty weak to say "I can't afford it". Yes it's more expensive but how many people are wasting money in other areas? Even so, it would be possible to make sacrifices in order to afford it.

I think I read in a Jamie Oliver book that in Italy they eat rice and pasta so that they can afford to buy good quality meat. I believe we don't care enough about quality in this country, that we'd happily eat 10 tasteless chickens than 5 delicious ones (replace chickens with anything really)

I'm under the impression that organic meat is better than free-range because it's supposed to be close (or closer) to how most people presume an animal is reared, in a more traditional fashion. While free-range chickens would be allowed more space AFAIK there's nothing to stop them being plumped up with water and anti-biotics etc.

My main disappointment, oddly, is that this is essentially a reworking of one of his river cottage shows from last year when he tried to get people to give up take-away chicken meals
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Old 11-01-2008, 04:13   #62
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Poor attitude atmn! You can't give up because you don't get what you want. The answer isn't going veggie, it's making sure you get what you want and it's done right.
I think the answer to animal cruelty, if your really concerned, is going veggie as to not makes you a hypocrite. My reasoning is they are going to die anyway and they are chickens. Bred to eat. Im sure the electric shock to their heads is humane. But it must still hurt and Im sure that maybe it doesnt always work.

I like eating meat and do sometimes buy more expensive products. But in regards flavour why not buy the chicken for £20? Or even better rear your own? Or is there a line that someone has made where if you can only afford below it then you may as well live on rice and pasta. Pleaseeee...

For someone on here to post that someone who can only buy chicken if they can only afford the better types is insulting. If you want to spend money then thats your choice but to actually say that they should forego chicken unless they can by what you deem as best is wrong.

Also if you cant flavour a chicken then maybe its you cooking or taste buds. I can make any chicken taste nice.


If you care about animals then become veggie.

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I find it unlikely that many would be buying stuff produced in sweatshops but it's not a fair comparison, as bad as a sweatshop might be it's not prison!

On the one hand I'm not that concerned about conditions, but I am concerned about the quality of the meat. I think it's pretty weak to say "I can't afford it". Yes it's more expensive but how many people are wasting money in other areas? Even so, it would be possible to make sacrifices in order to afford it.

I think I read in a Jamie Oliver book that in Italy they eat rice and pasta so that they can afford to buy good quality meat. I believe we don't care enough about quality in this country, that we'd happily eat 10 tasteless chickens than 5 delicious ones (replace chickens with anything really)

I'm under the impression that organic meat is better than free-range because it's supposed to be close (or closer) to how most people presume an animal is reared, in a more traditional fashion. While free-range chickens would be allowed more space AFAIK there's nothing to stop them being plumped up with water and anti-biotics etc.

My main disappointment, oddly, is that this is essentially a reworking of one of his river cottage shows from last year when he tried to get people to give up take-away chicken meals
Its not prison. define prison for a 'chicken'. You could say free range is an open prison. Is that ok for you?

Last edited by atmn78; 11-01-2008 at 04:15.
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:42   #63
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Originally Posted by stu_69 View Post
Those 2 for £5 chickens are horrible though. The meat has no taste and the meat always goes off really quickly.
I think it tastes fine roasted and my mum makes a curry with the remining meat, so every bit is used!
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:59   #64
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What about during the winter. im sure free range isnt so great and humane then
eh?
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Old 11-01-2008, 09:13   #65
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I don't eat steak every day because I can't afford it. I eat meat 2 or 3 times a week, so I can afford to buy good quality meat when I do. At what point does a food item cease to become a priviledge and become a right?

We also drink organic milk as we have concerns over what 'non organic' cows are fed. We eat organic vegetables when possible, and have an allotment to grow our own. There are many shades of grey, and it's up to the consumer to decide whats best for them - for instance - we would eat local, non organic, produce over organic produce that has been shipped in from abroad.

The rest of the time, we eat vegetarian food, which I often find to be more interesting than just meat and 2 veg type meals.

My partner and I don't earn a large amount between us, but we've decided that we're concerned about the practices that go into making our food, and we've cut our cloth accordingly - the extra money we spend on buying organic produce means we don't go out as much, and we choose not to go on foreign holidays, we buy second hand cars, we don't often buy new clothes (and we are starting to buy fairtrade clothing as well).

It's up to the individual to make their own choices, but I feel they should be made aware of the processes so they can make the choice that they think is right, rather than chosing through ignorance.

Last edited by campdave; 11-01-2008 at 09:14.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:07   #66
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Originally Posted by campdave View Post
I don't eat steak every day because I can't afford it. I eat meat 2 or 3 times a week, so I can afford to buy good quality meat when I do. At what point does a food item cease to become a priviledge and become a right?

We also drink organic milk as we have concerns over what 'non organic' cows are fed. We eat organic vegetables when possible, and have an allotment to grow our own. There are many shades of grey, and it's up to the consumer to decide whats best for them - for instance - we would eat local, non organic, produce over organic produce that has been shipped in from abroad.

The rest of the time, we eat vegetarian food, which I often find to be more interesting than just meat and 2 veg type meals.

My partner and I don't earn a large amount between us, but we've decided that we're concerned about the practices that go into making our food, and we've cut our cloth accordingly - the extra money we spend on buying organic produce means we don't go out as much, and we choose not to go on foreign holidays, we buy second hand cars, we don't often buy new clothes (and we are starting to buy fairtrade clothing as well).

It's up to the individual to make their own choices, but I feel they should be made aware of the processes so they can make the choice that they think is right, rather than chosing through ignorance.
Fair play mate. Myself and my wife do a lot of the same. We buy organic milk (because we discovered some of the practices that go into milking cows - they are milked constantly so they get blisters and scabs on their teats which in turn get burst by the milking machinery and the puss ends up in your milk) and organic vegetables. We also don't eat meat every day of the week. As you say vegetarian food is not all lentils and carrots.

As I have said before even if you don't care about the animal think about the quality of food you are eating.
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Old 11-01-2008, 14:12   #67
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We buy organic milk (because we discovered some of the practices that go into milking cows - they are milked constantly so they get blisters and scabs on their teats which in turn get burst by the milking machinery and the puss ends up in your milk)
That's quite interesting. How do you know that organically raised cows aren't 'over milked' in that way too? Not squabbling, just interested, as I'm thinking of switching to organic too.
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Old 11-01-2008, 17:39   #68
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I drink soya milk these days, took a while to get the taste but it's fine in cooking, tea & cornflakes.
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Old 11-01-2008, 20:19   #69
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Superb explanation ty - IIRC you were/are a slaughterman so that's an educated answer too.
thanks jonozz. No I'm not a slaughterman but I do work for a large meat processing company and am regularly in the abattoir checking the quality of the animals that I buy.
As a buyer I'm up to speed with all of the standards involved in commercial pig production - UK farm assured, intensive, outdoor born, free-range and to a certain extent organic but its been a while now since we dabbled in that. I'm not too sure about broiler and egg production so don't feel too confident to start talking in too much detail about that.

Personally I'm concerned about animal welfare so as a bare minimum I will make sure that I only buy British-produced meat as there we have audited assurance schemes in place to ensure basic welfare standards.

I am happy to buy intensively produced british meat but for a treat I'll spend extra on free-range which is more welfare friendly because these animal are less confined and have more personal space to exhibit the five freedoms. Did you know there is no standard definition for free-range? It's all down to what the individual retailers want it to mean but basically they are outdoors all their lives which also adds to the flavour of the meat.

Whilst outdoors pigs and poultry (natural omnivores) will literally eat anything they come across i.e insects, vegetation, even the odd mouse! These 'treats' actually add a degree of flavour to the meat and as a consequence the meat from 100% meal/grain-fed intensive animals can taste bland in comparison.
Swill-fed pigs used to produce very flavoursome meat however that all got knocked on the head in 2001 after foot and mouth broke out and the government banned swill feeding in the UK.
The older generation will happily tell us that 'meat doesn't taste like it used to' and things like this ban and the intensification of animal production have a lot to answer for in this respect.

I think that organic is a lifestyle choice rather than a food niche. The audited organic production standards are essentially the same as free-range but with the added costs associated with organic feed (see previous post). Personally I'm not bothered that my meat has come from animals that have been fed on grain that was once sprayed with chemicals to prevent spoilage but I appreciate that this concerns some people.

Finally I don't touch the cheapo meat in supermarkets. I resent the fact that these retailers are selling this produce for way, way less than the cost of production meaning someone down the supply chain is seriously losing out.
But there are loads of people out there who love a good bargain and why should meat be any different "2 packs for the price of one? Nice one - I'll 'ave some of THAT!"

Last edited by pigpicker; 11-01-2008 at 20:23.
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Old 11-01-2008, 22:14   #70
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Well Jamie Oliver just said the farmer makes 3p profit per bird. That shed he just visited held 13000 bird so by my, probably wrong, calculations they make about £3500 profit per year, per shed. Hardly sounds worth it to me.
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Old 11-01-2008, 23:00   #71
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We have switched to eating less meat but better quality. The taste and texture is so much better. Those 2 for £5 chickens are horrible in comparison, they have little flavour and what flavour they have tastes slightly chemically, the texture is also wrong - slightly mushy Having tasted organic we wouldn't switch back. We've also switched to organic veg & milk plus we have soya milk for tea (it separates and goes a little strange in coffee

I'm not sure why some posters keep going on about what they think fat people or 'porkers' as someone so nicely referred to. I'm fat, don't smoke and as said above eat organic. I'm getting rather sick of the assumption that all fat people must be ill educated chavs who spend all their money on junk food, fags and booze.

The house we're about to make an offer on has a large veg patch and I intend growing my own veg - maybe with the extra exercise I'll also lose some weight as well as having really fresh veg
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Old 11-01-2008, 23:06   #72
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Well Jamie Oliver just said the farmer makes 3p profit per bird. That shed he just visited held 13000 bird so by my, probably wrong, calculations they make about £3500 profit per year, per shed. Hardly sounds worth it to me.
The 3p was in relation to a meat bird if I understood correctly - one time use only, and grown over 39 days.

Egg hens that work for a year will lay some 300 eggs, so I suspect may actually make a bit more money than that?
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Old 11-01-2008, 23:38   #73
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The house we're about to make an offer on has a large veg patch and I intend growing my own veg - maybe with the extra exercise I'll also lose some weight as well as having really fresh veg
It's a bit of a slog growing your own veg (and keeping the pests at bay!), but once you taste home grown, you'll be amazed at the flavours.
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Old 11-01-2008, 23:44   #74
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The gas chamber bit for the chicks on Jamie Oliver's show tonight was really quite distressing to watch.
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Old 12-01-2008, 00:09   #75
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Indeed. I thought they were just going to say what happened when they were killed, not actually kill them in front of you.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:01   #76
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A lot of the cheap (cheep) chicken that you see on the discount shelves arrives in this country lumped together into frozen metre-cubed cubes from predominantly Thailand and Brazil.
No wonder it tastes a bit mushy and maybe watery.
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:58   #77
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I'm not saying it's good or bad, that's a decision for the individual conscience. What I always think when looking around a supermarket, and seeing the whole chickens, is that it isn't just "food", it's something that used to be a living breathing animal. That animal had consciousness (Not like humans obviously, but still it was alive), it ate and slept like us, it was bred and fattened up purely to be eaten.
Well ok, that's life isn't it. What I personally find very uncomfortable, is the fact that many many of these former animals will not reach their purpose - they will be bought by wasteful people who let them go off in their fridges before they have chance to roast them. They may be roasted, and only a tiny part will be eaten, again by wasteful people.

Basically, something has died for nothing. I only think this of chickens - because you don't see whole pigs or cows in supermarkets - perhaps I can think that if one steak goes off, someone will have eaten the rest of the cow

It just seems a waste of a life. Like has been said, eating meat is a privilege not a right. Seems very selfish and immoral to let a life be wasted if you aren't going to eat it all.
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Old 12-01-2008, 13:46   #78
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Anyone know if McDonalds and KFC use free range?
Doubt it, that's probably the secret recipe.

Reminds me of Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler from Pratchett's Diskworld books,
"Pig onna stick!"
"Don't you mean pork?"
"All comes from the same animal, Guv."
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Old 12-01-2008, 13:48   #79
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Jamie Oliver fell short on his programme last night. He should have gone through the supply chain of intensive chicken farming to show who is profiting from the current set up.

If as it was mentioned by Jamie Oliver the purchasers pay 3p per chicken then I would like to know how the price we pay in the shops comes to about £2.50. I suspect Jamie did not go into the fact that in the UK we have an overly strong supermarket cartel.
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Old 12-01-2008, 13:51   #80
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KFC most certainly don't (use free range) - there is a lot of info out there about the way they treat their chicken, none of it good.

I eat free range or do without. I don't agree with battery farming, and the end result is a crap tasting bird anyway. Free range costs a lot more but actually tastes liek ti should

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