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Old 21-04-2021, 14:54   #161
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Originally Posted by AdamBrunt View Post
I have never said it was. But in the same vein, lets not dress the reaction/protestations of the other 14 clubs, Sky, UEFA, BT, FIFA as some sort of altruistic move to save the game for everyone either

And this is the other weird thing - in terms of competition and integrity (which is what they claim they were protecting), the other 14 would have been much better off if the big 6 had left (they would have had a much better chance of getting into the UEFA competitions) but because it's all about the money then they went with that instead.
I'm not talking about anything else apart from this failed attempt to make more money, you claim its to save football.

God knows how its clearly to make more money.
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Old 21-04-2021, 15:03   #162
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I'm not talking about anything else apart from this failed attempt to make more money, you claim its to save football.

God knows how its clearly to make more money.
Not sure where I ever said that ?
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Old 21-04-2021, 15:08   #163
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Not sure where I ever said that ?
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Out of touch ? Yes

But also, clearly, based on the media reaction this morning still the only people who can see that football is fundamentally broken and in desperate need of fixing. ]
In a thread about the super league.
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Old 21-04-2021, 15:20   #164
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In a thread about the super league.
So let me see if I understand .... you think "only the big 6 seem to see that football is fundamentally broken and in desperate need of fixing." is the same as "the ESL will save football" ???
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Old 21-04-2021, 16:18   #165
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No-one at the top of the game is acting altruistically and no-one has said they are. You seem to think, and forgive me if this isn't the case, that the ESL would have been worth the pain it would cause the rest of football because of the pain it would cause UEFA and FIFA.
It's the irony of sport that it's in the most capitalist country that you get the most socialist sport, once your inside the closed circle, whilst in Europe we tolerate, if even encourage, this monopolizing of wealth and the subsequent damage done to competition.

And you did say the ESL was the only leverage clubs had against UEFA. I was pointing out that it was a very few clubs and not the vast majority. No point criticizing those clubs for being concerned about their finances when the whole point of the ESL was to generate more wealth for the wealthy.

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Old 21-04-2021, 16:53   #166
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No-one at the top of the game is acting altruistically and no-one has said they are.
Really ?? All day yesterday (and this morning) everyone outside the 6 clubs was saying what a "crime" it was, how it was disgusting and completely against the integrity and competitiveness of the league(s). Not one of them mentioned how it would affect their bottom line even though that was all they cared about.

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And you did say the ESL was the only leverage clubs had against UEFA. I was pointing out that it was a very few clubs and not the vast majority.
Yes, the clubs who were threatening to break away. Not all clubs. To be perfectly frank, harsh as it sounds, UEFA don't really care about any team outside the top half of the PL and in all honesty, the clubs in the PL don't really care about clubs lower down the pyramid [ the rejection of Project Big Picture proves that ]

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No point criticizing those clubs for being concerned about their finances when the whole point of the ESL was to generate more wealth for the wealthy.
At no point have I criticized any club for being concerned about their finances. I have criticized them, as have others on this thread, for claiming they were purely interested in the integrity of the game and for being the same clubs who didn't give a single **** about the integrity of the game less than 12 months ago. They were criticized for their outright hypocrisy and, for want of a better phrase, their false outrage - nothing else.
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Old 21-04-2021, 17:21   #167
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I'm well aware of the issues in the game and it's multitude of faults, so many originating from the inception of the Premier League and the growing inequalities within the game, even at the very top. As the supporter of a League 2 club I'm also well aware that the bigger and wealthier the club is the more self-interested they are and I understand perfectly the role that self-interest has had in the protests this week.
But the answer to greed and self interest isn't more greed and self interest as much as you'd like it to take City down a peg or two. As for Project Big Picture or any other big reform that actually helps the lower leagues, I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Old 21-04-2021, 18:06   #168
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Project Big Picture would have given £0.5bn to the EFL AND increased the EFL's share of the PL revenue from 4% to 25% in return for he biggest 9 clubs getting a bigger cut of the TV money.

It might surprise you to learn - though it shouldn't - it was rejected by the majority of the PL. The EFL also supported the idea as well. In other words, it had the full support of the entire League pyramid EXCEPT for the 'smaller' clubs in the PL. 14 clubs - with their own interests at heart - blocked a **** load of money bring given to lower leagues. The same clubs accusing the big 6 of greed over the ESL.

As I have said before ... with the point blank rejection of Project Big Picture and UEFA dropping FFP, you can see why the timing of ESL came when it did.

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 21-04-2021 at 18:11.
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Old 22-04-2021, 09:44   #169
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Really ?? All day yesterday (and this morning) everyone outside the 6 clubs was saying what a "crime" it was, how it was disgusting and completely against the integrity and competitiveness of the league(s). Not one of them mentioned how it would affect their bottom line even though that was all they cared about.
This is revisionist history. First, it was almost everyone including supporters of the 6 clubs in question. You were literally the only football fan I knew who was defending it.

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Yes, the clubs who were threatening to break away. Not all clubs. To be perfectly frank, harsh as it sounds, UEFA don't really care about any team outside the top half of the PL and in all honesty, the clubs in the PL don't really care about clubs lower down the pyramid [ the rejection of Project Big Picture proves that ]
UEFA's opinion on this is not informing my opinion, nor would I guess is it informing the opinion of anyone else here.

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At no point have I criticized any club for being concerned about their finances. I have criticized them, as have others on this thread, for claiming they were purely interested in the integrity of the game and for being the same clubs who didn't give a single **** about the integrity of the game less than 12 months ago. They were criticized for their outright hypocrisy and, for want of a better phrase, their false outrage - nothing else.
This is all a smokescreen. It is possible to believe that clubs in the football league are primarily concerned with their bottom line, while at the same time realise this was a shockingly ill-conceived idea. If anything it will stop any real reform because almost nothing UEFA, FIFA et al could suggest would be as moronic as this.
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Old 22-04-2021, 09:47   #170
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Project Big Picture would have given £0.5bn to the EFL AND increased the EFL's share of the PL revenue from 4% to 25% in return for he biggest 9 clubs getting a bigger cut of the TV money.

It might surprise you to learn - though it shouldn't - it was rejected by the majority of the PL. The EFL also supported the idea as well. In other words, it had the full support of the entire League pyramid EXCEPT for the 'smaller' clubs in the PL. 14 clubs - with their own interests at heart - blocked a **** load of money bring given to lower leagues. The same clubs accusing the big 6 of greed over the ESL.

As I have said before ... with the point blank rejection of Project Big Picture and UEFA dropping FFP, you can see why the timing of ESL came when it did.
I've put in bold why some PL clubs had an issue with this.

Everyone who made money from the deal was for it, everyone who lost out was against it. What a shocker.
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Old 22-04-2021, 10:18   #171
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At no point have I ever said I was for it; I can see it's benefits and I also just don't see much difference between the ESL and what the CL will become in 2024. Logically, any fan who is against the ESL must also be against the 'CL 2024' but hardly anybody is. Rival fans go on about the ESL being a "closed shop" ( even though it isn't ) as if the CL and Premier League are not.

They clamour to this ideal that "a team can work its way up from the Vauxhall Conference to win the title" - sure they could, but it will never happen. The only reason Salford FC are climbing the leagues is due to the massive injections of cash they are getting ( which other clubs around them aren't ) thanks, in part, to the anti-greed cheerleader Gary Neville. Again, it seems perfectly acceptable for Gary's side to be greedy and receive loads of unearnt money but it's not fair if other clubs do ???

As someone pointed out in a phone in yesterday .... "football fans don't seem to realise that there are just 2 reasons why the PL is a £bn product and not a £mn one; Man United and Liverpool. Why should they be criticised for trying to do something that recognises that?"
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Old 22-04-2021, 11:05   #172
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I've seen very few fans who approve of the CL reforms. It's just that for most of us it's almost completely irrelevant whereas the SL had the potential to have a large impact on the crumbs we get from the rich clubs table.

And you keep repeating this "not a lot of difference" line. For the ESL 12 maybe but not for clubs in the rest of Europe who would have no chance of ever joining and get a big part of their income from the CL.

And being a member of the PL isn't a closed shop even if the chances of winning it, or even competing at the top end are minimal. There's still the hope that a Blackpool, Huddersfield or Barnsley can play there for a season.

And look at Liverpool's and Manchester United's turnover and compare it to Sheffield United or Everton. It's a multiple of those clubs regardless of how the TV money is split. They may suffer in comparison to Man City, which is your major complaint apparently, but they're not poor little orphans.

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Old 22-04-2021, 11:05   #173
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I’m no defender of the Champions League but Liverpool, United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs have all missed out in recent seasons haven’t they?
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Old 22-04-2021, 11:42   #174
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Old 22-04-2021, 12:37   #175
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And being a member of the PL isn't a closed shop even if the chances of winning it, or even competing at the top end are minimal. There's still the hope that a Blackpool, Huddersfield or Barnsley can play there for a season.
PL: teams in the league = 20, places available to others on merit = 3
ESL: teams in the league = 20, places available to others on merit = 5

Which one is the closed shop again ?

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I've seen very few fans who approve of the CL reforms. It's just that for most of us it's almost completely irrelevant whereas the SL had the potential to have a large impact on the crumbs we get from the rich clubs table.
Why ?? By your own admission the CL, to you, "is almost completely irrelevant". Why is an alternative (or even additional competition) to it suddenly relevant ? If anything, the ESL would have made the CL more relevant to the rest of you. As I have said before, the ESL was also going to treble the amount of money that is currently distributed by UEFA and the big 6 were going to stay in the PL meaning your income from that wouldn't have been affected either.

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And you keep repeating this "not a lot of difference" line. For the ESL 12 maybe but not for clubs in the rest of Europe who would have no chance of ever joining and get a big part of their income from the CL.
As above, this bolded part just isn't true. In the original proposal, 5 teams will be replaced in the ESL every year.

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And look at Liverpool's and Manchester United's turnover and compare it to Sheffield United or Everton. It's a multiple of those clubs regardless of how the TV money is split. They may suffer in comparison to Man City, which is your major complaint apparently, but they're not poor little orphans.
I have never said they were. There are about 3 tiers of clubs in the PL; City & Chelsea, the rest of the big 6, and the rest. Under the status quo, which is now back in play, that first group [ which if BoJo gets his way will soon be joined by Newcastle ] look set to dominate domestically for the foreseeable future. In the 3rd group, are several teams who have no intention of every competing for the European places - they are perfectly happy to do just enough to stay in the division so they continue creaming off their share.

I am not saying the ESL would have been the saviour of the game but this general feeling, in the media, that the status quo (and the new CL rules) is fine is nonsense.

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I’m no defender of the Champions League but Liverpool, United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs have all missed out in recent seasons haven’t they?
Recently ? Yes. Under the new format ? It would be highly unlikely; top 5 in the PL automatically qualify and if you don't finish in top 5 but are one of top 2 highest co-efficient runner ups across Europe then you're still in. Apparently, if the changes were bought in this summer then two (possibly all) of Arsenal, Spurs & Liverpool would be guaranteed a place in CL next season [ and Liverpool would be pretty much guaranteed a place in it for next 6/7 years ]
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Old 22-04-2021, 12:50   #176
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You said the PL was a closed shop, not me. The difference between the places on merit was that a team wouldn't have been able to retain their SL place based on their performance in that competition, whereas the other 15 retain them regardless of performance.

As for revenue. Do you seriously think a PL playing second fiddle to a SL would command anything like the TV money that it currently does, with or without the big 6. As for trebling the money distributed, how much UEFA money currently makes its way down to Leagues 1 and 2?

Taking in the proposed 15 founder members you're talking about 5 additional teams competing, against an additional 64 teams in the CL overall and, currently, an additional 17 in the group stages. A bit of a difference and a huge cut in revenue for the 17 in particular. And yes they could still stage a competition without the SL clubs but the cut in revenue argument still applies.

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Old 22-04-2021, 13:54   #177
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As for revenue. Do you seriously think a PL playing second fiddle to a SL would command anything like the TV money that it currently does, with or without the big 6.
The PL seems to be performing fine playing second fiddle to an ever changing/growing CL so not sure why it would suddenly go to pot.

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As for trebling the money distributed, how much UEFA money currently makes its way down to Leagues 1 and 2?
Ask UEFA ? What ever it is the ESL would have trebled it

I also see Bo Jo was prepared to force all ESL games to be free-to-air in the UK. That would have worked well seeing as the ESL was primarily interested in the international TV rights. And if he was prepared to do that to prevent the 'greedy big 6', one can only assume that the PL is going to be forced to go free-to-air to prevent the greedy big 20, yes ??? Of course not - cos that would **** off the PL, Sky, BT and his Saudi mates who is trying to convince to buy Newcastle.

For context, Steve Parish - the CEO/owner of Crystal Palace - before this whole thing kicked off was quoted using the following analogy "Supermarkets aren't instructed to help the corner shops". Post ESL he is all "what about the smaller clubs?"

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Old 22-04-2021, 16:31   #178
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Let's take the Leeds v Liverpool game on Monday night. If the ESL was in existence then the result would have been pretty meaningless to both teams, with Liverpool automatically having a place in Europe and Leeds pretty happy to be mid-table in their first season back in the premier league. Not to say they wouldn't have bothered, but the incentives to win for Liverpool would have been much less. Might they have played a B Team as the result wouldn't matter.

Also, I like Klopp - he seems pretty decent for a football manager, but I don't see why he got so angry about Leeds' "For The Fans/Earn It" training T-shirts. Brighton wore identical T-Shirts on Tuesday and Tuchel didn't say a word about it.

And while I'm talking about Leeds, their fall to the 3rd English Division was largely due to their failure to qualify for the CL. As painful as that was, it was because they overspent. With the ESL the "Big 6" can spend in full knowledge that they'll definitely have income from European football. Where does that leave the rest of the PL?
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Old 22-04-2021, 16:41   #179
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And while I'm talking about Leeds, their fall to the 3rd English Division was largely due to their failure to qualify for the CL. As painful as that was, it was because they overspent. With the ESL the "Big 6" can spend in full knowledge that they'll definitely have income from European football. Where does that leave the rest of the PL?
That is the whole point of FFP, salary caps and transfer budget limits. With those properly in place; Leeds wouldn't have been allowed to overspend and LFC wouldn't have been able to keep on spending either. Funnily enough the PL and UEFA don't want any of those regulatory measures to be introduced.
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Old 22-04-2021, 17:59   #180
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How would 5 spaces be allocated in this competition? Invite or some grand qualifying contest??
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