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Old 30-03-2005, 12:56   #21
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WB have traditionally been rubbish in their treatment of Kubrick (barebones discs in the main, naff original transfers of A Clockwork Orange and The Shining).

I mean, a barebones Clockwork Orange disc? And 2001? With all the masses of supplementary material that's sloshing around?

Hopefully they'll get their act together this time...

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Old 30-03-2005, 13:00   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
WB have traditionally been rubbish in their treatment of Kubrick (barebones discs in the main, naff original transfers of A Clockwork Orange and The Shining).

I mean, a barebones Clockwork Orange disc? And 2001? With all the masses of supplementary material that's sloshing around?

Hopefully they'll get their act together this time...
I believe they'd all been approved by the estate (or at least by Leon Vitali, Stanley's technical assistant) and also Stanley didn't want extras. The master prints were approved by Stanley himself I believe before he died.

It is a scandal that they don't have extras though. 2001 (the year, not the film) was a totally wasted opportunity to release 2001 (the film) in a super edition, but it was just bare bones (okay CDA bundled it in a gimmick boxed set with film cell etc, but that doesn't count).

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Old 30-03-2005, 13:01   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
I mean, a barebones Clockwork Orange disc? And 2001? With all the masses of supplementary material that's sloshing around?

Hopefully they'll get their act together this time...
To be fair, I think there were a number of factors involved here; not least dealing with Kubrick initially and then the Estate. And, of course, Warners have been revving up the engine on their classic releases each and every year since the medium was introduced.

Could be alot worse; the titles could be owned by Universal.
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:08   #24
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I would've thought it would be incredibly easy and uncomplicated to at least stick Mark Kermode's documentary on the CW disc (as they have done with his other documentaries, French Connection, Exorcist etc) but hey...

And if there was a "no extras" policy, why does The Shining feature Vivian's documentary? Avec commentary?

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Old 30-03-2005, 13:11   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadKenny
The master prints were approved by Kubrick himself I believe before he died.

As an unfortunate who owned the initial R1s of The Shining and A Clockwork Orange, I can only assume WB severely mucked up the transfers, then. Because they were awful...
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:15   #26
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Originally Posted by anephric
I would've thought it would be incredibly easy and uncomplicated to at least stick Mark Kermode's documentary on the CW disc (as they have done with his other documentaries, French Connection, Exorcist etc) but hey...
Thank god it isn't on there. I'd rather not have his garbage on my DVDs

Quote:
And if there was a "no extras" policy, why does The Shining feature Vivian's documentary? Avec commentary?
I assume because that documentary had already been released, on TV and I think on laserdisc(?). It's also one that's owned by the estate effectively and not something gimmicky created by the studio.
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:16   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
I would've thought it would be incredibly easy and uncomplicated to at least stick Mark Kermode's documentary on the CW disc (as they have done with his other documentaries, French Connection, Exorcist etc) but hey...

And if there was a "no extras" policy, why does The Shining feature Vivian's documentary? Avec commentary?
*Sigh*; I'm not saying there was a 'no extras' policy, I'm just guessing. And I'm not privvy to negotiations between Warners and Kubrick estate, nor do know how 'incredibly easy and uncomplicated' it would be, never having negotiated rights issues, or produced a commercial DVD.

Go ask Warners...

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Old 30-03-2005, 13:17   #28
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P.S. Interesting interview with Leon Vitali about the current DVDs...

http://www.dvdtalk.com/leonvitaliinterview.html

Interesting quote in particular...

Quote:
I'll tell you right now, okay, on Clockwork Orange, The Shining, Barry Lyndon, some little parts of 2001, we had thousands of cans of negative outtakes and print, which we had stored in an area at his house where we worked out of, which he personally supervised the loading of it to a truck and then I went down to a big industrial waste lot and burned it. That's what he wanted.
All that stuff burnt never to be seen again!

Does suggest however that Stanley wouldn't have wanted these to even turn up as extras.
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:18   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadKenny
Thank god it isn't on there. I'd rather not have his garbage on my DVDs
Boooo. It'd be better than nothing, at least...

I only moan because I've seen some terrific 2001 docs over the years: I vividly remember a BBC2 retrospective that was shown years ago before a screening of the film - it stuck in my mind because the BBC actually showed 2001 in something like its OAR (when it wasn't fashionable to do so) and it was the first time I'd really watched the film properly.

It just hurts that there's so much material available and it's going to waste...
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:20   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodson
*Sigh*; I'm not saying there was a 'no extras' policy, I'm just guessing. And I'm not privvy to negotiations between Warners and Kubrick estate, nor do know how 'incredibly easy and uncomplicated' it would be, never having negotiated rights issues, or produced a commercial DVD.

Go ask Warners...
Don't get defensive, John. I wasn't having a pop at you....
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:21   #31
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Originally Posted by anephric
Don't get defensive, John. I wasn't having a pop at you....
Sorry; bad hair day.
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:22   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
I only moan because I've seen some terrific 2001 docs over the years: I vividly remember a BBC2 retrospective that was shown years ago before a screening of the film - it stuck in my mind because the BBC actually showed 2001 in something like its OAR (when it wasn't fashionable to do so) and it was the first time I'd really watched the film properly.
I remember that as well. I forget the guy's name but it was a really good analysis of the film. It was that showing in the OAR that really got me interested in Kubrick films (in fact in films in general). I even based a school essay on that retrospective

A similar BBC2 event that had a big impact on me was their showing of Once Upon A Time In The West, introduced by Alex Cox. Can't remember if it was the OAR but it was widescreen at least, long before digital telly.
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Old 30-03-2005, 13:40   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadKenny

All that stuff burnt never to be seen again!

Does suggest however that Stanley wouldn't have wanted these to even turn up as extras.
I have to admit, in that situation I would've been heretical and ignored him, a la Kafka and his dying wish to have all his works destroyed...

I wouldn't have been able to help myself.

Also, can I ask, does that mean that the 20 mins excised from 2001 are gone forever? Or the more explicit version of the Ludovico treatment film (and Alex's menage a trois with the girlies) from ACW?
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Old 30-03-2005, 19:14   #34
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Or the more explicit version of the Ludovico treatment film (and Alex's menage a trois with the girlies) from ACW?
No, that's the version we have, identical to the original MPAA X-rated cut - which with the passing of time now qualifies as a R. The ORIGINAL, edited R-rated cut has two shots in the gang rape scene in the treatment film (cutting away at the dialogue "then another"), while the X-rated cut has four.

I don't know how far outside the USA the edited version went. The version I saw in Paris in 1988 was the uncut one.
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Old 30-03-2005, 23:46   #35
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As far as I know (and I don't know specifically what), Kubrick replaced the entire Alex menage a trois for the 1973 R-rated cut, as well as cuts/alterations to the Ludovico treatment (about 31 seconds total).

This is the version (according to David Hughes in The Complete Kubrick) I had on NTSC laserdisc, and (iirc) the original R1 dvd. I'm pretty sure this was the version I saw theatrically in the UK when it was rereleased after Kubrick's death: I'd never been able to see it before in a cinema (that is, it was identical to my laserdisc, which was R-rated).

I do own the R2, but I'm ashamed to say I've never watched it (I only got round to flogging my R1 not so long ago). I assumed it was the same version.

Is this R-rated version on LD and the original R1 dvd the "altered" version? If so I think it's the only version I've ever seen... or is David Hughes wrong? And I've been watching the X-rated version all along...
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Old 30-03-2005, 23:59   #36
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I'm almost certain that the LD, the old R1 and the new R2 and R1 DVDs are all the same (in so much as nothing's cut and nothing's added between each versions).

I used to have a bootleg VHS which was probably taken from the LD and I'm sure it's the same as the R2 DVD I've got.

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Old 31-03-2005, 00:26   #37
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So is that the X-rated version, then, or the "amended" R-rated one?

How do I tell the difference..? The number of cutaways in the Ludovico sequence?
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Old 31-03-2005, 00:42   #38
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Gary's saying it's the X rated version, but then you're right that David Hughes says otherwise in that it was modified to achieve an R rating and it's that version that's on the LD and DVDs.

I recall now reading a long time ago about how the menage a trois was speeded up to get a lower certificate, but then Hughes' book suggests it was always speeded up but has bits replaced.

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Old 31-03-2005, 07:09   #39
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There are two R-rated versions, in effect...the original edited one and the later uncut one. With the passing of time what was originally X-worthy could be passed as a R.
My info came from one of Brad Stevens's columns in The Dark Side. I've not actually seen the edited version, but I've seen the one with four shots in the Ludovico/gang rape sequence every time I've seen the film...in a cinema in Paris in 1988, off a (borrowed) Canadian VHS in the late 90s, in a UK cinema on its rerelease, and it's the version on my DVD copy (Region 2, as part of the Kubrick box set).

I don't know about differences to the menage a trois sequence between the two versions, so can't help you there.
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