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Old 18-10-2020, 16:18   #4001
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On the same day VAR failed to notice a Werner handball directly before a goal and Kyle Walker kicking someone in the head in the penalty area, this is despite players on the pitch drawing attention to them. I still think VAR is the way to go, but in England the operators of the system are incompetent and inconsistent - If I was a suspicious person I'd wonder if there is a case of them doing it on purpose to discredit a system that they thinks undermines them???
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Old 18-10-2020, 16:55   #4002
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You could at least get your facts right - the new standard is not at the end of the t-shirt line but where the armpit finishes ( pretty much where the shirt badge stops ).

And that's before you look at the still they used and see the ball is already 6" away from Thiago's boot. At one stage they were going to use a still from where the ball was beyond's standing leg FFS

And let's not forget the "armpit offside" actually first happened against Liverpool, and the Wolves offside ( at Anfield ) was nowhere near as close as any of the ludicrously tight/wrong decisions other clubs have had.
Armpit, end of t-shirt... Same difference. They used the spot they are now told to use and it was offside. The ball leaving the foot and incorrect frame argument is the same one every team uses to try and convince themselves they've been hard done by.

The gripe is that Liverpool are complaining that the treatment they got isn't the same as everyone else has had, which is pathetic. Lots of teams have had bad tackles gone unpunished by VAR, borderline yellows given as reds, or handballs incorrectly or not given, particularly as last season refs weren't even encouraged to use the monitor either.

As mentioned above, its the ref's using it that are incompetent. That's not a new thing that Liverpool have suffered alone. We've all had to.

As for our offside at Anfield not being tight...... the width of a toe isn't tight?

Last edited by The Bear; 18-10-2020 at 16:59.
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Old 18-10-2020, 17:18   #4003
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Originally Posted by cheeseypuffs View Post
On the same day VAR failed to notice a Werner handball directly before a goal and Kyle Walker kicking someone in the head in the penalty area, this is despite players on the pitch drawing attention to them. I still think VAR is the way to go, but in England the operators of the system are incompetent and inconsistent - If I was a suspicious person I'd wonder if there is a case of them doing it on purpose to discredit a system that they thinks undermines them???
I wasn’t sure if the Werner one was handball or whether it hit the defenders head which looked IMO to be near Werners arm, it looked like the ball bounced forward as if it had been headed?

Last edited by Bravoman; 18-10-2020 at 17:20.
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Old 18-10-2020, 18:12   #4004
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I wasn’t sure if the Werner one was handball or whether it hit the defenders head which looked IMO to be near Werners arm, it looked like the ball bounced forward as if it had been headed?
It went downwards from the defenders head and then bounced up off his arm, clearly a handball, but VAR didn't even look at it!
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Old 18-10-2020, 18:30   #4005
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To me the offside, though ludicrous is clouding the bigger issue. Is there anyone who seriously believes Pickford shouldn't have gone for that assault? If VAR and the ref had done their job correctly then, we'd have been playing 80 minutes 1 up against 10 men, we would have had the game well won before the offside.
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Old 18-10-2020, 19:25   #4006
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To me the offside, though ludicrous is clouding the bigger issue. Is there anyone who seriously believes Pickford shouldn't have gone for that assault? If VAR and the ref had done their job correctly then, we'd have been playing 80 minutes 1 up against 10 men, we would have had the game well won before the offside.
Harold Schumacher might leap to Pickford’s defence but that’s about it.

Most teams have been on the end of a horrendous offside decision before now. There’s always a line where the YES/NO decision has to be made. In my opinion, the width of the shirt on a player’s shoulder is the wrong point to be making that decision. Also, as has been pointed out, it relies on VAR stopping the “tape” on the exact point the pass is released. I believe this is impossible for the human eye, so whatever method is implemented - either with or without help - there will always be whinging and moaning.

There is no perfect system.
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Old 18-10-2020, 19:29   #4007
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It's not when the ball is released though, it's the first frame when the ball touches their foot.
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Old 18-10-2020, 19:31   #4008
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It is also reliant on the human ref placing the cross hair in exactly the right place on the screen.

VvD requires surgery and the club are not saying how long he will be our for.

If there's any justice, Pickford will get a minimum 3 week ban but, half of me thinks that will just hand a massive boost to Everton

In other news, it is being reported that Thiago should be available for the weekend and Alisson should be back before the end of the month.
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Old 18-10-2020, 19:34   #4009
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It's not when the ball is released though, it's the first frame when the ball touches their foot.
Makes it even stranger then they have used a frame where the ball has clearly left the foot

VAR will never work while the useless/inept/corrupt refs - it was meant to improve on - are actually the ones running it.
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Old 18-10-2020, 20:14   #4010
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That is the crux of the matter, they make out that offside is a yes/no line call, ie. there's a fixed point at which the offside line is crossed, but then it's managed by an operator lining it up with his eyes, so is inherently open to some form of interpretation. If there is a definitive line to cross then it should be an automated process, however if the argument is that it's too complicated and not possible to automate it then it cannot be an infallible, definitive system as they imply it is!
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Old 18-10-2020, 20:15   #4011
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Oh here's a front page scoop ... Carragher has defended Pickford
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Old 19-10-2020, 08:13   #4012
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Latest reports this morning are that Pickford can not banned as BOTH the ref and VAR have said they saw the assault and neither thought it merited any sort of caution.

God help the Leeds and Wolves players tonight if that **** Coote - who is tonight's ref - can look at that challenge over over for 2 minutes and think it doesn't even deserve a yellow card !!!! Every time they allow that man to ref a game the PL/FA are now setting themselves up for the mother of all lawsuits. The ref is responsible for the safety of the players - this **** clearly doesn't give a ****.

And there is no deterrent for Pickford either - that is at least the 2nd time he has gone unpunished for the same sort of challenge on an opponent. Why should he change his ways ( continuing to risk the future careers of fellow professionals ) when he knows he can get away with it ?
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Old 19-10-2020, 08:23   #4013
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Latest reports this morning are that Pickford can not banned as BOTH the ref and VAR have said they saw the assault and neither thought it merited any sort of caution.
Hasn't that always been the rules, if the referee includes the incident in his report, they can't / won't revisit it?

I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do, there surely should be some post match reviews allowed.

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Old 19-10-2020, 08:27   #4014
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It has - I am just more in shock that 2 refs have seen it and deemed it perfectly acceptable. It also begs the question why the ref even thought the Richarlison was worthy of a free kick, net alone, a red card if the Pickford challenge was fine

Mind you, in the past, the FA have acted on incidents the ref hasn't penalised properly; the Ben Thatcher(?) incident being case in point

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 19-10-2020 at 09:04.
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Old 19-10-2020, 11:44   #4015
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Hasn't that always been the rules, if the referee includes the incident in his report, they can't / won't revisit it?
When it suits them, yes. But from recent memory how about Son having his yellow card upgraded to red by VAR ( so both must have seen it), then subsequently downgraded by the FA to avoid a ban They clearly changed that decision which both referee and VAR had seen and reviewed at the time.
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Old 19-10-2020, 16:44   #4016
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I guess that's the appeal process instead of retrospective action. Different rules and criteria.
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Old 19-10-2020, 17:17   #4017
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This is the danger of introducing TV as the arbiter of decisions: it just shifts the rubbish decisions into another area of the game. They're going to have to decide if TV is in charge or if it is not, and then go all-in.

We've had a load of penalties given this year - VAR has proved them "right" but there were plenty of them that we would have previously called "soft" at best. So the players evolve to take advantage of that grey area.
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Old 19-10-2020, 19:45   #4018
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VAR is not the issue. The issues are that it is being used (a) by the same incompetent people it was meant to improve in the first place and (b) to cover up / confirm the mistakes the incompetent refs are still making.

The VARs coming from the same pool of officials as the usual incompetent rabble is the biggest problem with it. But the PGMOL will not allow anything that shows them to be totally inept. As an example, all they have done since Saturday is release contradictory statement after contradictory statement in some crazy attempt to protect their officials and sweep it under the carpet. And no shock that it has only recently been like this since Riley was put in charge.

The general idea was that VAR would stop the far too frequent times like https://twitter.com/Watch_LFC/status...927634949?s=09 where professionals were being paid 6 figure sums to literally make things up as they went regardless of how often it changed the result of a game. This weekend has proved that, in the wrong hands, VAR just adds another level of stupidity to the mix.

And the funny thing is ... even European fans know it's ****; Bayern fans, today, are asking UEFA what they've done to deserve being given Oliver as the ref for their CL game this week

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 19-10-2020 at 20:31.
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Old 20-10-2020, 07:44   #4019
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This morning's newspaper headlines don't look good for Coote at all or rather

And, surprise surprise, having had his arse covered by everybody since Saturday ... Coote is quietly removed from ref/VAR duties for next weekend.

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 20-10-2020 at 21:20.
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Old 21-10-2020, 09:03   #4020
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Jordan Pickford tackle on Virgil van Dijk 'completely stupid' - Georginio Wijnaldum https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54623158

Woeful reporting, who writes this guff:

“As the 29-year-old Netherlands centre-back was being treated, the video assistant referee (VAR) noted it was checking for a "possible penalty". In the end, it could not have been a penalty because Van Dijk was offside. Referee Michael Oliver gave a free-kick to Everton, Van Dijk left the pitch and the game carried on.”
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