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Old 08-04-2009, 14:50   #81
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Originally Posted by Ste7en View Post
I'm gonna Google it. Just out of curiosity.

Not that I doubt anyone about it, just surprised I didn't spot it is all
With respect, this is where the whole grain/DNR business becomes a bit silly. Someone suggests that a title has been DNRd to death so someone else, who had no problem with the disc decides to check it out further. Even those rabid anti-DNR people at AV Science didn't seem to have a problem with Sleeping Beauty.
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Old 08-04-2009, 15:45   #82
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I think that grain ought not to be an issue with animation - after all, what it is reproducing is not 35mm film grain but the artists' paintings. You wouldn't expect a Picasso to be reproduced with grain

I think I may even have read somewhere that Disney actually stated removing the grain et al was a deliberate part of the restoration process?

Back to Zulu: I count myself in with the grain lovers, whoever they are; after all this discussion I'm going to get a copy just so I can see if it bothers me on my 40" LCD...

...really looking forward to seeing those waxy hills...
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Old 08-04-2009, 16:08   #83
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With respect, this is where the whole grain/DNR business becomes a bit silly. Someone suggests that a title has been DNRd to death so someone else, who had no problem with the disc decides to check it out further. Even those rabid anti-DNR people at AV Science didn't seem to have a problem with Sleeping Beauty.
I wouldn't change my mind about it, just curious...
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Old 08-04-2009, 16:09   #84
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I think that grain ought not to be an issue with animation - after all, what it is reproducing is not 35mm film grain but the artists' paintings. You wouldn't expect a Picasso to be reproduced with grain
But each frame is shot on film
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Old 08-04-2009, 18:14   #85
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The problem with Sleeping Beauty is where the noise reduction has had a deleterious effect on the animation, not just the removal of grain per se. DNR is particularly problematic with animation because it can destroy entire lines of detail, like the edges of faces or objects.

AND - then you enter into the conflagration about how those cels were designed, i.e. the colouring being oversaturated in order to take into account being photographed. The analogy about Picasso does not stand, because he did not design his paintings to be mechanically reproduced through a photochemical process that's suddently found itself being digitised.

Mr Whiggles has some nice info further to this and screengrabs here.
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Old 08-04-2009, 19:25   #86
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You all know I'm a grain-hound, but if DNR is used judiciously and with restraint then I simply don't have a problem with it. Grain can be toned down without affecting fine detail, that much is certain. But when grain is just arbitrarily erased it takes fine detail with it, giving movies an ersatz look that I can't stand.

Robert Harris has noted that the remastered Bonds have been DNR'd to varying degrees, but he still gushes about the BDs because the detail has been preserved (and how! Dr. No is incredible). There's a layer of grain left behind, yet it's so light that most folk don't even know it's there.

My point is that some studios are being needlessly destructive when it comes to jazzing up their back catalogues for HD. With a bit more effort, a middle ground could be achieved a la Bond. But without the benefit of Lowry's resources and experience, some people (I'm looking at you, Paramount!) are content to simply turn the DNR knob up to 11.

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Old 08-04-2009, 20:20   #87
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It's when detail is lost because of it's removal then perhaps you have a right to moan, but in the case of Zulu, if you are suggesting it is anything but a richly detailed transfer, then it is you that is speaking tripe, or you haven't actually seen the disc in action.
Do you think the faces on Zulu are smeared?
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Old 08-04-2009, 20:48   #88
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It's not snobbish, it's not looking down on anyone; it's about wanting the movie to look like a movie instead of a sharpness boosted videotape master.
If you are saying Zulu looks like a sharpness boosted videotape master then you haven't actually watched it. If you have watched it then it's argument over.

Elzar - no smearing here - are you watching it on a 50" Alba?
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Old 08-04-2009, 21:03   #89
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If you are saying Zulu looks like a sharpness boosted videotape master then you haven't actually watched it. If you have watched it then it's argument over.

Elzar - no smearing here - are you watching it on a 50" Alba?
No, a Panasonic 42PZ85.

I don't think there is any snobbery. It's just that the people who think Zulu looks waxy can't believe someone would find it stunning. And vice versa.
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Old 08-04-2009, 21:57   #90
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No, a Panasonic 42PZ85.

I don't think there is any snobbery. It's just that the people who think Zulu looks waxy can't believe someone would find it stunning. And vice versa.
I guess that's about it. Some people, it appears, don't like grain because it's not what they're used to, and so regard it as black mark against a film. It's pretty much impossible to convince such people that it should be there.

Sometimes I feel it just doesn't fit with certain viewers' idea of the kind of image their big shiny TV should be showing.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:30   #91
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Besides, I stopped taxing some of you guys seriously when I heard the phrase 'waxy hills'
Which is a bit weird 'cause you're the one who invented that phrase.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:42   #92
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AND - then you enter into the conflagration about how those cels were designed, i.e. the colouring being oversaturated in order to take into account being photographed. The analogy about Picasso does not stand, because he did not design his paintings to be mechanically reproduced through a photochemical process that's suddently found itself being digitised.

Mr Whiggles has some nice info further to this and screengrabs here.
Point taken - I had no idea that animators did that, so you're quite right about my Picasso analogy

// Moves away to intone...

Oh Lord, please help me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:48   #93
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Yeah, consider yourself told!
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Old 22-05-2009, 12:45   #94
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I decide to rent this and see what the quality is really like. It was drawdropping and a perfect 10/10 for me. It is the best looking BD I have seen.
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Old 22-05-2009, 13:15   #95
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Zulu is being used in my local Currys to show the improvement of HD over SD DVD with the left hand side of the frame SD, the right hand side HD - yes, the picture looks much sharper and brighter but the amount of edge-enhancement (ringing) around objects and actors is almost comically bad. Does anyone think it ever looked like that at the cinema ?
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Old 22-05-2009, 13:49   #96
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Zulu is being used in my local Currys to show the improvement of HD over SD DVD with the left hand side of the frame SD, the right hand side HD - yes, the picture looks much sharper and brighter but the amount of edge-enhancement (ringing) around objects and actors is almost comically bad. Does anyone think it ever looked like that at the cinema ?
I've seen those comparison videos in shops and I don't believe either side of the frame is the actual SD or HD transfer. SD very rarely looks anything like as bad as what they claim you're upgrading from. I didn't think Zulu had very noticable ringing.
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Old 22-05-2009, 14:11   #97
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Zulu is being used in my local Currys to show the improvement of HD over SD DVD with the left hand side of the frame SD, the right hand side HD - yes, the picture looks much sharper and brighter but the amount of edge-enhancement (ringing) around objects and actors is almost comically bad. Does anyone think it ever looked like that at the cinema ?
Those demos cannot show true HD v SD. It is only a simulation and of course they will make the HD look better.

There was no edge enhancement on Zulu when I watched it. Having a projector it would have stood out a mile.
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Old 22-05-2009, 14:57   #98
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Originally Posted by bosque View Post
Zulu is being used in my local Currys to show the improvement of HD over SD DVD with the left hand side of the frame SD, the right hand side HD - yes, the picture looks much sharper and brighter but the amount of edge-enhancement (ringing) around objects and actors is almost comically bad. Does anyone think it ever looked like that at the cinema ?
So you are comparing a display set-up by someone in Currys with a cinema screen? Erm. Zulu looks great.
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Old 22-05-2009, 21:02   #99
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Zulu is being used in my local Currys to show the improvement of HD over SD DVD with the left hand side of the frame SD, the right hand side HD - yes, the picture looks much sharper and brighter but the amount of edge-enhancement (ringing) around objects and actors is almost comically bad. Does anyone think it ever looked like that at the cinema ?
Actually it looks better than it ever looked like in the cinema.
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Old 23-05-2009, 15:49   #100
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I finally got a look at Zulu on Blu-Ray and holy moley on rye, it's amazing-looking. I honestly don't understand how anyone can complain about this disc. And I'd guess that the people doing the complaining have never seen Zulu in the cinema. And yes, yes, yes, no one on these online forums understands anything about film or grain - they understand what they've read on the Internet or from people like Robert Harris who is a very nice and knowledgeable man, but who doesn't always post clearly on the subject - I mean, to him it's clear, and to me it's clear, but it's confusing to others. Honestly, do you think that ninety-nine percent of the people on the HTF of AVS ever heard the expression O-Neg before Mr. Harris started using it (and I hadn't heard it before that - in fact, I have never known anyone in any phase of the business who's used it and I've been in the business since 1970)? But everyone's an armchair expert, everyone on these forums knows everything. Sorry. They know, in fact, nothing, other than what they've read and/or what they perceive these things should look like. The majority of them have never EVER seen any of these forty year old films in theaters or projected and that, for me, means I cannot possibly take their comments seriously. Zulu is gorgeous - one of the few discs I've seen where the color actually replicates what saturated color should look like - BLUE skies, not brown or white skies, good skin tone instead of actors looking like they have jaundice - in fact, Zulu, color-wise, is everything that The Searchers should have been, rather than the overly-yellow mess it is. But, then again, on the AVS and HTF I read about the settings people are using, and that's all they do is try to suck the color out of discs because they somehow believe that's what these movies looked like - sorry, not what they looked like. It's what TODAY'S movies look like, where filmmakers seem to favor this golden-hued yellow/brown look for most movies.

In any case, Zulu looks fresh and beautiful and sharp, with great color and detail.
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