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Old 09-04-2006, 21:50   #81
John Hodson
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Go back to one of Mike's original questions; do you support 'colorization' of black and white films? If you don't then how on earth can you support tampering with the sound? If you do, then I don't know what to say to you.
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Old 09-04-2006, 21:51   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyWilson
Try doing a search for Mike's previous discussions of this subject filmandtvman - I think you'll find he can string an argument together...

My main misgiving about these heads is the statement that the animated series will not be available elsewhere.

I've got everything else in the set (with the exception of the extended Battle.. - but that's not a prospect I relish even as a huge Apes fan) and I just about remember TV showings of the cartoon, so I really want to see them again.
I have bought the R2 head and returned it,and am replacing the Legacy R1 set with the R1 head collection.
But I have 2 dvd's with transfers from VHS(off airs-not copies) recorded for me in Australia over 10 years ago.
The prints are terrible,but if you only want to see them and are not a completist,you are welcome to them free of charge.
I may have the original VHS recordings still aswell
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Old 09-04-2006, 21:52   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodson
Go back to one of Mike's original questions; do you support 'colorization' of black and white films? If you don't then how on earth can you support tampering with the sound? If you do, then I don't know what to say to you.
Now this is why I get annoyed.
Please read my post immediately after Mikes where I answer the question directly
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Old 09-04-2006, 21:56   #84
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My apologies; missed that. But I'll say it again, if you don't support 'crayoning in' then how can you support someone tampering with a sound mix? Whether it's sound or vision, the principle is the same.

Last edited by John Hodson; 09-04-2006 at 21:58.
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Old 09-04-2006, 21:58   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Fair enough, I withdraw my comments. But I think I've fought this battle many times before so I will graciously withdraw.
I think that post says it all.
Can't be bothered.
If you can't be bothered to elaborate and explain your point of view,why bother posting it.
To me,your POV is simply not wanting to change something that can be improved.
I love Hammer films,but I don't think I would enjoy many of them should Anchor Bay do a remix.Quatermass and The Pit's 5.1 was dreadful,as was The Devil Rides Out(R1).But the latter in standard surround was lovely to listen to(German R2) and enhanced the movie greatly over the mono version.
So I would say that many movies are improved with new mixes,many are not.
Thats a reasoned argument,not just some dislike of changing the past
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:03   #86
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Oh FFS!
Use the 'search' and you'll find Mike's extensively argued opinion on the matter in no time, or can't you be bothered?
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:04   #87
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For someone who isn't a troll, he sure is going out of his way to pick a fight...
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:17   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmandtvman
I would be interested in your counter argument regarding my point about restoration.
The counter argument is that 'hairs', 'scratches' and 'pops' were never put there by a director, they're a result of wear and tear. Restoration, therefore is, akin to putting things back the way the film was originally meant to be seen.
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:17   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodson
My apologies; missed that. But I'll say it again, if you don't support 'crayoning in' then how can you support someone tampering with a sound mix? Whether it's sound or vision, the principle is the same.
I suppose it is from the "changing the past" point of view ,but thats all.
If it improves the film then go for it,but there's not a movie I know that I'd prefer in colourised format.
I have "Day The Earth Stood Still" "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" etc and none would be improved by colour.
But tv companies continue to buy colourised material as the masses won't go for it in B&W
If Granada+ had been offered Bewitched in B&W they would have skipped seasons 1 and 2,just like ITV 4 are avoiding B&W material from the ITC catalogue.
But colouirsation is not for me.
But sound is often improved to standards that director/composer etc would liked to have had at the time.
Upcoming re-releases of Irwin Allen movies will see Poseidon Adventure in 5.1 for the first time.Definitely a movie that will be excellent in surround sound.
Many movies are remixed either unnecessarily or poorly.Anchor Bay has brought us a lot of old movies from the likes of Amicus,Tigon etc with DTS mixes that are very poor.
Most of those old movies are not improved by a remix.
But things like Fantastic Voyage and Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and the Apes films cry out for a sound mix as spectacular as the visuals.
And very good they are too.
But I feel differently on this with different films.
And its not just because of some outdated view that upgrading the sound is changing history and should be stopped

Last edited by filmandtvman; 09-04-2006 at 22:26.
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:24   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre07
The counter argument is that 'hairs', 'scratches' and 'pops' were never put there by a director, they're a result of wear and tear. Restoration, therefore is, akin to putting things back the way the film was originally meant to be seen.
Many of the Disney restorations alter colour and other parts of the film.Is that also wrong?
You have put it correctly.Its the way the director intended it to be seen,and sound technology has improved so that directors can now improve it to how they wish it could be.
Robert Wise seemed very happy with his reworking of Star Trek The (Slow) Motion Picture,but that involved new effects,5.1 sound etc.
Where do you draw the line?
Stick with a minority of purists who want 30/40/50 year old sound left as it is,or bring it up to date so a new audience appreciates it and enjoys it with the improvements that technology can bring.
I suppose the ideal situation for the purists is that every movie is suppled with its mono track intact.
Halloween,Phantasm.Logans Run,Forbidden Planet,Apes,Voyage/Bottom/Sea,Journey/Centre/Earth,Day the earth stood still and many more movies are supplied on dvd with some level of surround sound where none was originally.
The improved sound is the icing on the cake
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:32   #91
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A link to one of Mikes previous threads would be appreciated.
However,it should not really be a problem rehashing old stuff.
You guys have been on here for 6 years.
Do you really think I want to look back over up to 6 years of previous threads just because you don't want to repeat something you have posted before

Last edited by filmandtvman; 09-04-2006 at 22:35.
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:43   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmandtvman
I suppose the ideal situation for the purists is that every movie is suppled with its mono track intact.
Absolutely ideal. Quite frankly, they can remix the sound any which way as long as they also provide a good original track.

The instances where tracks have been remixed by the original director and/or sound engineer are few and far between - it's usually done to please the 'I've got five speakers and I want to use 'em' crowd.

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Old 09-04-2006, 22:48   #93
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Had a look but can't find anything that explains Mike's reasons.
But on the same kind of subject-what do the purists think about the alteration of aspect ratios?
Obviously widescreen is preferable,but I refer to the changing of 1.66:1 movies to 16:9 for dvd.
Personally,I hate non anamorphic discs,and I prefer a 16:9 enhanced version with slivers of image missing off top and bottom rather than a non anamophic 1.66:1 disc.
The UK Warner Carry On discs are not anamorphic and I prefer the US Anchor Bay versions,mainly as its impossible to get a 1.66:1 image perfect on my tv.I either zoom and get 16:9 anyway(with lost resolution) or have borders on all 4 sides.
Same with early Bond films.
What is Mike (and co.) views on this?
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:54   #94
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No, I'm not falling for it...
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Old 09-04-2006, 22:54   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodson
Absolutely ideal. Quite frankly, they can remix the sound any which way as long as they also provide a good original track.

The instances where tracks have been remixed by the original director and/or sound engineer are few and far between - it's usually done to please the 'I've got five speakers and I want to use 'em' crowd.
Don't forget the others;the "I've got 7 speakers and I want to use them as long s it improves the movie" crowd.
As I have noted,many remixes are dreadful.
One movie I was suprised to enjoy in surround was "The Bishops Wife".
Mono on R2 (not sure about the R1 re-release) but the original Samuel Goldwyn release boasted a fabulous remastered picture and either 4 or 5 audio tracks.
The "Chace Surround" process seemed an out of place choice for this movie,but it was extremely subtle and dialogue was centred as it should be and surround was basically only for music .
During the musical sequences it really brought the film to life.
Switching between the mono track and the surround(not 5.1) track showed very little was altered,but what was done was very nice.
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Old 09-04-2006, 23:02   #96
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Back to the topic:although I have seen(and posted on here) references to the cartoons being unavailable I have not seen a definite statement categorically denying their release.
A while ago,"TV Shows on DVD" ran a piece saying that Fox would not have the cartoons ready on the same day as the movie re-release/Ape Head release,but it did infer they were not defintely a box set exclusive forever.
Had the toons come out ,or if we had accurate news on their release,I would have bought only the movies and toons.But with Amazon and PLAY both saying "unavailable" and no future date listed,does anyone have a link to anything official?
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Old 10-04-2006, 12:08   #97
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Star Wars had three soundmixes: mono and Dolby Stereo for standard 35mm presentations and 6-track Dolby Stereo for the premier 70mm engagements. Two of those are surround mixes so the home versions: DPL for Stereo and 5.1 for 6-track (sort of) would have been truer to not better than the "original" mix, if they were taken from the original stems (though Skywalker Sound couldn't even get the basics right and switched the rear channel tracks for the 5.1 home mix). And that's before you get on to the foley frenzy...

Planet of the Apes had a 4-track stereo mix. Beneath had a stereo (possibly 4-track) mix and Escape and Conquest had 4-track mixes. They also had mono mixes. Battle probably only ever had a mono mix. The problem with the 5.1 home mixes is they haven't been taken from the original multi-channel tracks (the original stems for Planet are lost). Chace Productions used the mono mixes and worked their 'magic' to create the 5.1 mixes. Quite simply what was heard in (capable) cinemas is better than what you will hear at home. Just listen to Varese and FSM's cd Apes scores to get an idea of what the films sounded like (they used the original stereo music tracks).

As with Star Wars, The Poseidon Adventure (and The Towering Inferno) had three mixes. Unless you know different the dvd release of Poseidon has only been listed with a "stereo" mix. The Towering Inferno will have a 4.0 stereo mix which is truly excellent news (assuming it's been sourced from the original stems).

Ideally I like the films I watch at home to include the best original mix that was produced. If it's only mono - that's what I'll have. I also have an appreciation for the technicians who created the film at the time they created it with its intended audience. Bond films prior to The Spy Who Loved Me will sound odd with multi-channel soundtracks. The earlier you go back the worse it will get. A 2005 soundmix is not going to integrate with a 1965 image. I'll listen to them for the fun/gimmick factor but will always default to the original (mono).

I don't want to speak for other people but I bet no one here is towing a mono is best line - what they do want is the original soundtrack. Very often that soundtrack is a) a damn site better than you are either aware of or give it credit for and b) superior to what is presented on dvd due to missing elements, laziness or budgetary constraints.
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Old 10-04-2006, 17:23   #98
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Let Blofeld's reply be an end to the matter.
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Old 10-04-2006, 17:24   #99
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Originally Posted by Spectre07
Let Blofeld's reply be an end to the matter.

Please!

dvdtimes' reviews are up now. Another good job!
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Old 10-04-2006, 19:35   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blofeld
Star Wars had three soundmixes: mono and Dolby Stereo for standard 35mm presentations and 6-track Dolby Stereo for the premier 70mm engagements. Two of those are surround mixes so the home versions: DPL for Stereo and 5.1 for 6-track (sort of) would have been truer to not better than the "original" mix, if they were taken from the original stems (though Skywalker Sound couldn't even get the basics right and switched the rear channel tracks for the 5.1 home mix). And that's before you get on to the foley frenzy...

Planet of the Apes had a 4-track stereo mix. Beneath had a stereo (possibly 4-track) mix and Escape and Conquest had 4-track mixes. They also had mono mixes. Battle probably only ever had a mono mix. The problem with the 5.1 home mixes is they haven't been taken from the original multi-channel tracks (the original stems for Planet are lost). Chace Productions used the mono mixes and worked their 'magic' to create the 5.1 mixes. Quite simply what was heard in (capable) cinemas is better than what you will hear at home. Just listen to Varese and FSM's cd Apes scores to get an idea of what the films sounded like (they used the original stereo music tracks).

As with Star Wars, The Poseidon Adventure (and The Towering Inferno) had three mixes. Unless you know different the dvd release of Poseidon has only been listed with a "stereo" mix. The Towering Inferno will have a 4.0 stereo mix which is truly excellent news (assuming it's been sourced from the original stems).

Ideally I like the films I watch at home to include the best original mix that was produced. If it's only mono - that's what I'll have. I also have an appreciation for the technicians who created the film at the time they created it with its intended audience. Bond films prior to The Spy Who Loved Me will sound odd with multi-channel soundtracks. The earlier you go back the worse it will get. A 2005 soundmix is not going to integrate with a 1965 image. I'll listen to them for the fun/gimmick factor but will always default to the original (mono).

I don't want to speak for other people but I bet no one here is towing a mono is best line - what they do want is the original soundtrack. Very often that soundtrack is a) a damn site better than you are either aware of or give it credit for and b) superior to what is presented on dvd due to missing elements, laziness or budgetary constraints.
The R1 Towering Inferno is already in 5.1,so offering it in 4 channel sound only will be a step backward.
One hopes that there will be multiple audio options.
Poseidon Adventure IS listed as stereo,but with Fox's track record I would be surprised if its not at least standard Dolby Surround.
They have a history of giving surround mixes to all their oldies,and I hope they continue that trend.
Personally,I don't care what the original mx of any movie was,as long as the new offering sounds good.
And the 5.1 mix of Thunderball sounds perfectly normal,although when this was originally done for Laserdisc it was said that the reason Thunderball was the only old Bond film they could do it with was because the original sound elements for the other movies were lost.
But Goldfinger and You Only Live Twice (and especially OHMSS) are ones I look forward to in some kind of surround version next year

Last edited by filmandtvman; 10-04-2006 at 19:36.
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