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Old 17-01-2005, 12:34   #21
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That's a very interesting observation... people forget the furore that accompanied Deep Throat's release and the ripples throughout the industry it caused. It does, after all, have pretensions about being a 'proper' film...

Had De Palma stuck to his guns and made Body Double hardcore as he originally espoused that similarly might have been 'revolutionary', be it for better or for worse.
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Old 17-01-2005, 13:00   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
That's a very interesting observation... people forget the furore that accompanied Deep Throat's release and the ripples throughout the industry it caused. It does, after all, have pretensions about being a 'proper' film...

Had De Palma stuck to his guns and made Body Double hardcore as he originally espoused that similarly might have been 'revolutionary', be it for better or for worse.
Other directors have dabbled with the idea of including hardcore in their mainstream works. Take Stanley Kubrick: he and Terry Southern thought at one point about making something with real sex in it. The idea filtered through the years, and ended up, somewhat diluted, in Eyes Wide Shut. British film Don't Look Now kept its audiences guessing, of course. I'm sure a dissertation could be written on how close certain "legitimate" Hollywood directors have come to shooting live sex on their soundstages, In the Realm of the Senses-style.

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Old 17-01-2005, 13:09   #23
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Clockwork Orange?
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Old 17-01-2005, 13:14   #24
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Originally Posted by Panavision
Clockwork Orange?
Yes: post-Bonnie & Clyde violence, and nudity into the bargain... All creating a work that has resonated through the years, only returning to Brit distribution again when Kubrick died.
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Old 17-01-2005, 13:40   #25
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you could also argue for Blair Witch Project, if only for the way it launched the global movie marketing machine on the internet in such a big way ...
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Old 17-01-2005, 14:03   #26
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If you get the chance to see "Big Wednesday" on the big screen, grab it. Makes a great movie even better. I seem to recall seeing it in 70MM at the Warner West End in 1979.

I'd certainly add to the list:

The Moon Is Blue (1953, Otto Preminger)
The Man With The Golden Arm (1955, Otto Preminger)
The Searchers (1956, John Ford)
Shadows (1959, John Cassavetes)
Psycho (1960, Alfred Hitchcock)
The Children's Hour (1962, William Wyler)
The Wild Bunch (1969, Sam Peckinpah)
The Killing of Sister George (1969, Robert Aldrich)
Last Tango In Paris (1973, Bernardo Bertolucci)

The last one is a borderline case but it was part financed by United Artists so it just about counts. Anyone know which was the first mainstream American film to deal with homosexuality (a) as a subject and (b) explicitly on screen ? I'm fairly sure that "The Children's Hour" was the first to deal with lesbianism, albeit quite discreetly.

If we're thinking about films from outside America, you'd have to include "The 400 Blows" and "Breathless". Probably also "Eyes Without a Face" and "A Fistful Of Dollars".
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Old 17-01-2005, 14:07   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
If you get the chance to see "Big Wednesday" on the big screen, grab it. Makes a great movie even better. I seem to recall seeing it in 70MM at the Warner West End in 1979.

I'd certainly add to the list:

The Moon Is Blue (1953, Otto Preminger)
The Man With The Golden Arm (1955, Otto Preminger)
The Searchers (1956, John Ford)
Shadows (1959, John Cassavetes)
Psycho (1960, Alfred Hitchcock)
The Children's Hour (1962, William Wyler)
The Wild Bunch (1969, Sam Peckinpah)
The Killing of Sister George (1969, Robert Aldrich)
Last Tango In Paris (1973, Bernardo Bertolucci)

The last one is a borderline case but it was part financed by United Artists so it just about counts. Anyone know which was the first mainstream American film to deal with homosexuality (a) as a subject and (b) explicitly on screen ? I'm fairly sure that "The Children's Hour" was the first to deal with lesbianism, albeit quite discreetly.

If we're thinking about films from outside America, you'd have to include "The 400 Blows" and "Breathless". Probably also "Eyes Without a Face" and "A Fistful Of Dollars".
Aren't we limited to films from 1969-1980?
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Old 17-01-2005, 14:44   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanWilde1966
Aren't we limited to films from 1969-1980?
No idea! Might as well talk about my sister's black cat's ass!

To put this thread back on topic...

Thanks for the heads up.

I've already dragged my mates to see The Wild Bunch and will be watching Pat Garrett & Billy The Kid next Monday.

I'm most likely watching Badlands and Days Of Heaven to finally complete my Malick movies!

Night Moves and Big Wednesday will be getting checked out due to Mike's constant flatterly of them.

Oh and a restored Heaven's Gate is a no brainer! I CANNOT WAIT for this!

Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia and Blue Collar were likely but they're only screening on the small NFT screens.
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Old 17-01-2005, 15:39   #29
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I'd watch Blue Collar on the radgiest screen in the world: I wouldn't care.

I've seen Days of Heaven theatrically: I was buzzing for ages after that. It's magical.
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Old 17-01-2005, 15:46   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Anyone know which was the first mainstream American film to deal with homosexuality (a) as a subject and (b) explicitly on screen ? I'm fairly sure that "The Children's Hour" was the first to deal with lesbianism, albeit quite discreetly.
I take it we ignore Gore Vidal's assertions about what he intended with Ben Hur and its (not-so-subtle) subtext?

Hitchcock isn't very subtle about Leonard's affections in North by Northwest...

Spartacus (if it hadn't been trimmed) must be reasonably early?

But then again, these are all 'intimations'.

Isn't there a gay character in Adam's Rib? Or is it just implied?
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Old 17-01-2005, 21:13   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
The Pawnbroker (1964)

The Last Detail (1973)

Deliverance (1973)

All for challenging what was acceptable content in mainstream Hollywood film.
You should certainly add Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? to that.

I don't know whether it could be said to have "changed" Hollywood, but Greetings was the first MPAA X-rated film.

and on the other hand, Convention City and The Story of Temple Drake (both 1933), generally reckoned as the two films which brought about the strict enforcement of the Hays Code.

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Old 17-01-2005, 21:24   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanWilde1966
Other directors have dabbled with the idea of including hardcore in their mainstream works. Take Stanley Kubrick: he and Terry Southern thought at one point about making something with real sex in it. The idea filtered through the years, and ended up, somewhat diluted, in Eyes Wide Shut. British film Don't Look Now kept its audiences guessing, of course. I'm sure a dissertation could be written on how close certain "legitimate" Hollywood directors have come to shooting live sex on their soundstages, In the Realm of the Senses-style.
The only examples I can think of are William Friedkin's subliminal shots of gay sex during the first two murder scenes in Cruising and (I believe) an oral sex shot in Jane Campion's In the Cut. The latter was cut from the R-rated US theatrical release but included in the overseas version - the BBFC makes a point of mentioning this in its annual report.

Marco Bellochio's 1986 Devil in the Flesh is an Italian film but it was distributed in the USA by a major studio (United Artists) with a X rating, complete with Maruschka Detmers' unsimulated fellatio on Federico Pitzalis.
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Old 18-01-2005, 08:38   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Couzens
The only examples I can think of are William Friedkin's subliminal shots of gay sex during the first two murder scenes in Cruising
I've never been able to see these (*duh* well, they are subliminal) and I've never seen the alleged 'fisting' in the background either.

Not, perhaps, that I'd want to.
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Old 18-01-2005, 10:30   #34
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I reckon out of all that lot the most exciting movie to see on the big screen will be The Warriors
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Old 18-01-2005, 10:56   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanWilde1966
Aren't we limited to films from 1969-1980?
Yeah, i thought i was missing the point too. I assumed that this was related to the fact that somebody working in programming at the NFT had finally got round to reading Easy Riders...and thus was in no way meant to respresentative of 'all' Hollywood (either chronolocially or stylistically/thematically).

But then maybe it's the point of the thread that i've missed!
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Old 18-01-2005, 17:37   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anephric
I've never been able to see these (*duh* well, they are subliminal) and I've never seen the alleged 'fisting' in the background either.

Not, perhaps, that I'd want to.
The subliminals are cut by the BBFC. Presumably the only way to see them is to get hold of a R1 DVD and run it in slow motion. The only reason they're in there in the first place is Friedkin's revenge on the MPAA for the extensive cuts he had to make. Jade has some subliminal shots as well, so I'm told.

The fisting sequence is certainly in there - watch for a close up of a man lubricating his arm and it follows shortly afterwards. It's not especially graphic (especially after the MPAA had its way with it), but it is there - a first and possibly only for a commercially-made non-porno American film.
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Old 18-01-2005, 17:45   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Couzens
Jade has some subliminal shots as well, so I'm told..
I remember them from original release and they're none too subtle - however when I watched this again recently on Sky Movies it appeared they had been sanitised (unless my brain's playing tricks on me).

They certainly didn't seem to be as numerous and as overt as I remember.

Has Cruising ever been released on R1 dvd? I didn't think it had and, if so, would someone kindly direct me towards it...
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Old 18-01-2005, 23:06   #38
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sigh....

My intention was to broaden the discussion out into a discussion of films which changed Hollywood as per the examples I gave in my first post. I wish I hadn't bothered now...
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Old 19-01-2005, 08:42   #39
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King Kong (1933)

I can't imagine what it must've been like to have seen this in the context of the '30s - it must've seemed like magic.

Anyway, the first SFX blockbuster which would influence (and spawn a league of inferior imitations) for years to come.

Reds (1981)

A brave film, particularly at the birth of Reaganism.

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Old 19-01-2005, 11:26   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
sigh....

My intention was to broaden the discussion out into a discussion of films which changed Hollywood as per the examples I gave in my first post. I wish I hadn't bothered now...
Why the huffing and puffing? I saw the point you were making in that post - but surely the original Easy Riders... focus of the original list is more interesting than what could become simply another summation of the greatest films ever created, aka "my favourite films"...?
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