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Old 04-01-2016, 13:16   #81
Jedibitch
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Just finished this and if you submitted this as a piece of fiction people would tell you it's a touch too far fetched.
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Old 04-01-2016, 13:42   #82
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Do I think he did it? I go between thinking that he did (but not in the way Brendan described) or that someone else did it and just made all roads lead to Steven. In the latter, I think the police might have wished it was him and that's when they got lazy and the local cops maybe did some monkey business to ensure the conviction.

It's the reasonable doubt thing though that would have made it difficult to convict if I'd been on the jury. It's absolutely mind blowing to watch that programme and learn about all of the coincidences that occur along the way plus the way the local police got involved; how the search was handled; the total lack of DNA evidence which supports the Brendan account and then on top of all of that, the clear fact that the blood vial had been tampered with. The whole thing seemed botched from start to finish whether it was him who did it or not.
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Old 04-01-2016, 14:18   #83
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He may or may not be guilty but its certainly not beyond reasonable doubt so shouldn’t have been convicted.

Most of the jury probably decided after the new conference where they announced what had happened and by what means even before anything was proven.
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Old 04-01-2016, 14:41   #84
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No the documentary was designed to put a doubt in your mind.

Should they have not put out press conferences like that, most definitely. I can't believe that the trial wasn't transferred elsewhere or a non-local jury stuck in. I'd argue it wasn't a fair trial, but I do think the evidence was there to convict.
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Old 04-01-2016, 15:05   #85
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I think we must have been watching a different programme. I felt they were a mile away from proving beyond a reasonable doubt and the local Manitowoc police were completely untrustworthy.

Last edited by alsemail; 04-01-2016 at 15:08.
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Old 04-01-2016, 15:23   #86
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I think we must have been watching a different programme. I felt they were a mile away from proving beyond a reasonable doubt and the local Manitowoc police were completely untrustworthy.
I agree with all this but it doesn't mean he didn't do it. It illustrates the damage that can be done when confessions are the primary evidence - see the Robin Hills murders and the one featured in 'Murder on a Sunday Morning' for further proof of this.
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Old 04-01-2016, 15:28   #87
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I've said since the beginning I'm unsure of his guilt and in a way that's the point. There too much conflicting, plain odd and "coincidental" evidence along with a lack of physical evidence, sloppy investigation and questionable police conduct for me to send someone away based on that trial.

Going to give a couple in that other thread a watch soon.
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Old 04-01-2016, 16:42   #88
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Originally Posted by rbullivant View Post
No the documentary was designed to put a doubt in your mind.

Should they have not put out press conferences like that, most definitely. I can't believe that the trial wasn't transferred elsewhere or a non-local jury stuck in. I'd argue it wasn't a fair trial, but I do think the evidence was there to convict.
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I think we must have been watching a different programme. I felt they were a mile away from proving beyond a reasonable doubt and the local Manitowoc police were completely untrustworthy.
Agree with that.
I didn't see a single bit of evidence that proved he did it. There were others who could have done it but none were checked out properly, if at all.
All the evidence was questionable, and the evidence that wasn't there was more telling to me. Steven doesn't come across as that bright. I can't understand how he could possibly have got rid of every single cell of DNA and blood from the kill site, whichever site that was as the police seem to say there were 2, in 2 separate trials, the garage for Steven, the trailer for Brandon.

Could Steven have done it? Yes, but not in the way the police said.
Could someone else have done it? Yes
Did Brandon do it? I very much doubt he had anything to do with it at all.

Should that be enough to convict someone of the crime? Nope, not in my view.

Plus all appeals have been refused, that strikes me as odd too.
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Old 04-01-2016, 17:47   #89
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I think we must have been watching a different programme. I felt they were a mile away from proving beyond a reasonable doubt and the local Manitowoc police were completely untrustworthy.
No I don't think so, however I did concentrate on the actual trial and the evidence presented, a lot of the stuff that was discussed in the documentary was probably never presented as evidence. There was also plenty of stuff that they didn't include (it did last for six weeks).

Your whole viewpoint is based upon that the police framed him, if you don't accept that the police did so (or it wasn't proved that they did) then how did the blood end up in the car? Why was the car on his land? And so fourth. They didn't talk for 6 weeks about how the police framed him, there must have been plenty of other stuff discussed.

He didn't even seem to be able to rely on his family to provide any sort of an alibi.
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Old 04-01-2016, 17:51   #90
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Originally Posted by rbullivant View Post
No I don't think so, however I did concentrate on the actual trial and the evidence presented, a lot of the stuff that was discussed in the documentary was probably never presented as evidence. There was also plenty of stuff that they didn't include (it did last for six weeks).

Your whole viewpoint is based upon that the police framed him, if you don't accept that the police did so (or it wasn't proved that they did) then how did the blood end up in the car? Why was the car on his land? And so fourth. They didn't talk for 6 weeks about how the police framed him, there must have been plenty of other stuff discussed.

He didn't even seem to be able to rely on his family to provide any sort of an alibi.
Forgetting about all the other stuff, how do you explain there being 2 kill sites, and the complete lack of either DNA or blood at either site?
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:00   #91
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He used a plastic sheet, cleaned up after himself, etc. I'd guess he'd be aware of the importance of DNA evidence
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:00   #92
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The car was one of the strangest things though. The guy has below average IQ, yet cleans up every single trace of a brutal murder from his trailer/garage but leaves the victims car parked on his land.... When he owns a car crusher?
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:05   #93
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Originally Posted by rbullivant View Post
Your whole viewpoint is based upon that the police framed him,
No, my viewpoint is it has been proved multiple times the local police force is untrustworthy, there's a lack of real physical evidence to substantiate the prosecutions claims and a lot of suspicious circumstantial evidence "found" by the same 2 officers that either

A/ Shouldn't be there.
B/ Found the car key in plain sight after 7 previous searches found nothing.
C/ Colborn phoned in to dispatch the licence plate of the car 2 days before it was found and 3 days after it was reported missing.
D/ Lenk was onsite (again) the day before the bullet was found and 4 previous searches found nothing
E/ Colborn wrote a report the day after Avery was released from his 18 year sentence to say when they were a corrections officer, the person who did assault the first victim that Avery was sent away for confessed it to them, they passed this onto Lenk. This was when Avery had been in prison for 10 years, nothing was done about it and he served another 8 before being exonerated.

As to he cleaned up after himself, if he'd done that his DNA wouldn't be everywhere in the garage, cleaning it up would remove all the DNA bar the odd bit here and there he left after the cleanup. The garage had his DNA, and only his DNA under the cracks they dug up etc.

It's not just the evidence for and against him that's important, it's the lack of physical evidence.

You in turn are just taking everything the police and DA are saying as incontrovertible fact therefore he's guilty beyond any doubt?

An opinion that seems to flow against the thread.

Last edited by alsemail; 04-01-2016 at 18:51.
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:07   #94
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The car was one of the strangest things though. The guy has below average IQ, yet cleans up every single trace of a brutal murder from his trailer/garage but leaves the victims car parked on his land.... When he owns a car crusher?
A car that was found by 2 volunteers in 20-25 mins in that huge junkyard (god led her to it!) and she photographed it with a camera given to her by the victims boyfriend who was organising the search. They gave nobody else a camera....

----------------------------------------------------

Also saw this on Ken Krantz (former, now disgraced DA) earlier.

In the Supreme Court ruling on Ken Kratz's disciplinary case it is revealed that he has been diagnosed with and sought treatment for 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder'.
For those who are not familiar with this condition here is a list of the primary symptoms:

Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerating your achievements and talents
Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
Requiring constant admiration
Having a sense of entitlement
Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
Taking advantage of others to get what you want
Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Being envious of others and believing others envy you
Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner


Sounds just like the kind of person you'd want prosecuting people.

Last edited by alsemail; 04-01-2016 at 18:31.
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Old 04-01-2016, 21:08   #95
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He used a plastic sheet, cleaned up after himself, etc. I'd guess he'd be aware of the importance of DNA evidence
Himself or themselves?
Which kill site are you talking about, the garage or the trailer?

There was no evidence of any cleaning taking place in the garage even though they dug the concrete floor up to try to prove it had been cleaned, and you really think he covered the whole garage with plastic sheeting? Yet they managed to leave a bullet behind but not a single trace of blood or DNA?

Theres not a shred of evidence to suggest he did any of that, and more importantly, it wasn't suggested in the trial.

You didn't say why you think there could be 2 kill sites? In one trial it was said it was the trailer, in the other, the garage, surely you can see both can't be correct?

Last edited by dvds2000; 04-01-2016 at 21:10.
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Old 04-01-2016, 21:16   #96
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The car was one of the strangest things though. The guy has below average IQ, yet cleans up every single trace of a brutal murder from his trailer/garage but leaves the victims car parked on his land.... When he owns a car crusher?
No doubt he did that so that a policeman could find it somewhere else a couple of days later, call the plate in, realise it was from a missing person, but obviously not look in the windows and see a blood stain, or investigate it any further whatsoever, then later drive it back onto his land, partially cover it, toss the key on his garage floor ready to be found and then claim it was a police fit up
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:59   #97
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Episode 9 spoiler

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Old 05-01-2016, 05:23   #98
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Himself or themselves?
Which kill site are you talking about, the garage or the trailer?

There was no evidence of any cleaning taking place in the garage even though they dug the concrete floor up to try to prove it had been cleaned, and you really think he covered the whole garage with plastic sheeting? Yet they managed to leave a bullet behind but not a single trace of blood or DNA?

Theres not a shred of evidence to suggest he did any of that, and more importantly, it wasn't suggested in the trial.

You didn't say why you think there could be 2 kill sites? In one trial it was said it was the trailer, in the other, the garage, surely you can see both can't be correct?
It's also telling that although he left blood behind in the SUV there was no fingerprints left. No fingerprints suggests gloves were worn, but how then would blood be left behind when no bloody glove was present on the property? Unless he burned it in the fire I guess.
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:24   #99
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Perhaps I shouldn't be so assertive in proclaiming Avery's innocence in this case, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it follows that I think he's guilty of the crime, either; but the truth tends to stand true, bright and unyielding. There are too many anomalies, questions, coincidences and contradictions in the legal cases surrounding Steven Avery for the truth to be what the prosecutors laid out in court to the jury.

I watched the final episode last night and came to the conclusion that the word used multiple times in the programme to label one of its characters is, sadly, all too often accurate when applied to humanity at large: Venal.

An aggravating aspect of the entire pantomime was the lack of critical engagement with the unfolding events by the victim's brother. It made me angry to listen to him contradict himself, adjudicate on the guilt of the accused on local TV news while the trial was ongoing, disparage the entire Avery family, show little or no sign of grief for his murdered sister, etc, etc. An absolute fool of a man who may have contributed to the incarceration of two potentially innocent men.
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Old 05-01-2016, 15:48   #100
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Fascinating tale. Clearly presented in a very one-sided fashion though, but even with that said for me there can be no doubt that the police (and special prosecutor) acted hugely inappropriately, and there were huge gaping holes in the case against both of them.

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