Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

[General Zod]

Originally Posted by shteve

AKA The Skywalker Saga. One of the reasons TLJ feels so off.

For me, it's the way they've killed off or sidelined all the OT cast (Han and Luke both gone by the end of the 2nd film, Leia having to be written out due to Carrie Fisher doing, and R2 and 3PO reduced to cameos).

[allan]

Not having the original 3 sharing any scenes was a major mistake, but it seems obvious that while Mark Hamill clearly really wanted to come back, Harrison Ford clearly only returned if he got everything the way he wanted.

[Spaceranger2001]

Originally Posted by allan

Not having the original 3 sharing any scenes was a major mistake, but it seems obvious that while Mark Hamill clearly really wanted to come back, Harrison Ford clearly only returned if he got everything the way he wanted.

Don't know what you mean by what he wanted except a large pay packet - imho Han, Leia and Chewie should have been the ones to go get Luke not the Mary Sue.

[lentini]

Originally Posted by Spaceranger2001

Don't know what you mean by what he wanted except a large pay packet

For Han to die. Like he wanted since the OT.

[allan]

Originally Posted by Spaceranger2001

Don't know what you mean by what he wanted except a large pay packet - imho Han, Leia and Chewie should have been the ones to go get Luke not the Mary Sue.

He clearly wanted the character killed off, I don't think he cared so much about the money (although obviously could pretty much name his price).

[Spaceranger2001]

I know he wanted to die in Empire and that would have been dramatic then we would not have got buffoon Solo in Jedi. But to only want to come back to have the character killed off when he was effectively out of it seems daft.

Watching a few Q&A with Hamill had he shown up to catch his saber on starkiller base instead of mary sue it would have been so much better.

[allan]

Yes I agree about the Hamill bit and would've made more sense.

[Mevlock]

Originally Posted by Spaceranger2001

Don't know what you mean by what he wanted except a large pay packet - imho Han, Leia and Chewie should have been the ones to go get Luke not the Mary Sue.

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in A New Hope.

It's an extremely lazy way to denigrate the character.

[lentini]

Originally Posted by Mevlock

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in A New Hope.

It's an extremely lazy way to denigrate the character.

Luke actually had force training from Ben and took years to be powerful. Rey had none and was instantly powerful.

[Mevlock]

Originally Posted by lentini

Luke actually had force training from Ben and took years to be powerful. Rey had none and was instantly powerful.

I don't really want to get into it too much, it's an annoying argument.

But true Mary Sues are few and far between. In fact far more male characters across all forms of media conform to the typical Mary Sure far more often than females do.

Luke had virtually no training from Ben, a couple of conversations and musings on the force and that was it, yet at his urging (while dead no less) Luke managed to utilise the force to destroy an entire Death Star.

Not only that but he also just so happened to be the best pilot in the galaxy purely from practising shooting womp rats back home. More talented than an entire fleet of experienced and well trained rebel fighters.

Don't get me wrong, Rey is a badly written, badly fleshed out character but she doesn't succeed, just like Luke doesn't, without help from others.

A true Mary sue would have waltzed through The Force Awakens and won the day all on her own.

[Spaceranger2001]

Originally Posted by Mevlock

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in A New Hope.

It's an extremely lazy way to denigrate the character.

It it looks like a duck and talks like a duck

Luke in a new hope is nothing like her

1. He is annoying and not everyone like him
2. He gets his ass handed to him by a few guys in gas masks and sticks
3. Grows by the end on the movie
4. Gets some training with a saber by obi-wan
5. Lives with people

Rey

1. Manages to live on her own
2. Can use a fighting stick and take on several opponents
3. Can fix better than Chewie and Han
4. Can fly the falcon as good as han and lando can - yet has never left the planet and no reason why she would be flying ships. Luke was training to go to the academy, that is why he was good and + he is a skywalker
5. Mastered mind control
6. Grabbed a saber and was almost as good in combat as seasoned fighter. (though finn would have a better chance as they are trained in melee combat but no he is taken out quite quickly)
7. Everyone likes her
8. She doesn't really grow - she was great at the beginning and is still great at the end so great they just hand over an important mission to her because. Leia has never met her before
9. She didn't have much of a heroes journey like luke did
10. She managed pretty well without anyone's help, no need for this princess to be rescued

Finn was a better character conflicted at least sometimes
Poe was a cocky knob, oh so important mission I am on; then he sods of and leaves the droid with the said info to get home alone.

Now had they gone about this rehash of Episode 3 a bit differently - have Finn and Rey join up to save Han who got hold of the droid with the plans but only succeed in getting them at the cost of Han's life causing Luke to turn up in the last act and start kicking ass.. Then Rey gets trained in the ways of the force. That would have been acceptable

But just like Leia poppins sudden use of force powers to survive in the vacuum of space, force skyping across the galaxy etc its just lazy writing cos lets be honest apart from what we already saw - I doubt the force is like a never-ending swiss army knife of different powers - I think GL didn;t go overboard with abilities in movies 1-6 should JJ an co should have kept with what we know

Lightning
Chocking
Pulling Pushing
Jumping
Running
Mind control

[Mevlock]

That's an... interesting post, with lots wrong with it.

But at the end of the day neither A New Hope or The Force Awakens are particularly well written or have particular well developed characters.

Certainly Luke and A New Hope are better in most regards. And Rey also does exhibit traits that are unrealistic and unexplained. I just take issue with the Mary Sue trope. It's over used and more often than not is used as a lazy way to criticize competent female characters.

Yet male equivalents which are far more prevalent doesn't seem get the same level of attention. When was the last time you heard the term Gary Sue?

[Spaceranger2001]

Originally Posted by Mevlock

a lazy way to criticize competent female characters.

From the ever useful Wikipedia

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero.

Rey would seem to fit this definition to a T

But I cannot think of many others Alice from Resident Evil is one

Sarah Conner is not
Ripley is not
Wonder Woman is not
Yet these are strong female characters and I have no issue with them

To some extent Poe would be a Gary Stu, no flaws in the first movie, everyone likes him (even when he gets your relatives killed), he's the best, he can do things that no other pilot can do. He is also a knob that buggers off mid mission leaving the plans to find their own way for reasons.

Main difference I see between Gary Stus and Mary Sues is that Gary Stus still tend to have flaws and better written flaws at that. What are Reys flaws?

For the record

Luke is whiny
Has a short temper
Arrogant on occasion
Impulsive
Craved adventure and excitement
Reckless

I have no problem with strong women on screen but strong does not mean perfect which is what they are making Rey out to be and its infecting the other female leads.

Rose character standing in front of the man who carried on with a mission against direct orders - for reasons. Said mission that got her sister or spouse I am not sure which; killed. And she does nothing to him, why? cos this is KK's Star Wars and women under the same conditions have to be better than men at every opportunity. A man would have decked him but she doesn't even chew him out for it and this is the first time in SW we have had the opportunity to see a relative of a fallen rebel actually be in the same room with someone responsible. And Miss Tran could have had an opportunity for some brilliantly written highly emotional dialogue that gave a SW character real humanity; more than we have seen before and could have gotten her a nomination had it been done right.

When you think of all the Rebels that got killed in the opening of TLJ and no one gives Poe a kicking from one side of the ship to the other

You might not like the term Mary Sue but its the poor writing and producer's agenda that is at fault not the people calling it out.

[Mevlock]

The only section there that applies to Rey is her being better than she should be with the force with no real explanation.

So hardly to a T.

I'm curious, are you taking TLJ into account with your labeling? By the end of that she's failed miserably throughout the film, barely escaping at the end, once again, only doing so with help. From the established hero in fact ie Luke.

Your making the same mistakes others have made, your taking JJ Abrams lazy writing, which sets up questions that are never answered and applying a lazy trope.

Sure go ahead and criticize the character, the writing etc, but do it with some thought, she only appears to be a Mary Sue on a very superficial level. It's an easy way to insult the character, by applying a borderline sexist trope.

[Mevlock]

OK I've read your edit and largely agree.

In fact I think we both agree that the root of the problem is the writing and how ineptly the new trilogy had been handled.

[Mevlock]

If she IS a May Sue I think it's entirely by accident.

I think her unexplained competence with the force and the way she was able to fix the Falcon were written in on purpose. Questions for the audience to be explained later. Typical Abrams rubbish really, just like Lost.

So I don't see as her as a Mary Sue as that would mean she just happened to be brilliant for no real reason. Which I don't think was (is?) the plan.

But yeah the only reason we're even discussing this is crap storytelling.

[Spaceranger2001]

Originally Posted by Mevlock

If she IS a May Sue I think it's entirely by accident.

I Agree

Originally Posted by Mevlock

I think her unexplained competence with the force and the way she was able to fix the Falcon were written in on purpose. Questions for the audience to be explained later. Typical Abrams rubbish really, just like Lost.

I agree, but don't get me started on JJ's mystery box style of filmmaking cos its crap. He is no Hitchcock.

If they had written her to show some force abilities at the beginning of TFA for example when she is climbing around the Star Destroyer she could of slipped and reached out to grab the rope/cable but it was out of reach but it moves towards her so she can grab it. Using the force by instinct. Just a quick glimspe almost a throwaway. Unlike the boy at the end of TLJ who grabs the broom deliberately

Originally Posted by Mevlock

So I don't see as her as a Mary Sue as that would mean she just happened to be brilliant for no real reason. Which I don't think was (is?) the plan.

We almost agree again; although not in the definition, if a Mary Sue to be a Mary Sue has to be intended to be a Mary Sue deliberately ; then Rey is one in all but intent but as a result of poor writing, and ill thought out plot. I wish they didn't make her a human, there are plenty of aliens in SW I would like to see a female alien as Rey

At least they confirmed that with the current batch of SW movies there is no plan and they wonder why there turned out so hit and miss

Jyn Erso was/is a far better character had Rey been written more like her I think the hubbub would be less.

[Steve1977]

woe betide anyone disagrees with you eh mate?

[jockosjungle]

Massive excitement, they've painted the stormtroopers red!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/48947394

I guess they realised that kids would simply play with the episode 7 stormtrooper toys and not upgrade them unless they were a different colour.

[allan]

You cynic you...