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Old 23-11-2011, 21:40   #181
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Originally Posted by campdave View Post
Either what Man Utd did is fine, or what City are doing is not. You can't have you cake and eat it.
Precisely.
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Old 23-11-2011, 21:48   #182
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There you go sharp_circle that answers your question. It's not like all those points could have been applied to Manchester United's relationship with Bolton in the last 20 years
That's not the point though, is it?

It's not about United doing things wrongly, it's about City not making it better as you imply. How is another fat cat making it even harder for the other clubs a "good thing for football"?
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Old 23-11-2011, 23:10   #183
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Either what Man Utd did is fine, or what City are doing is not. You can't have you cake and eat it.
campdave I tried to point out the hypocrisy of Manchester United fans complaining about the spending that Manchester City have been doing. Manchester United have broke the transfer record far more times than City. I never gripped like some fans of Manchester United are now when they were outspending all before them to give them unprecedented glory.

Some Manchester United fan will argue that they earned it, they only earned it because the system of the CL and the Premiership was rigged to make the most successful teams at the time maintain a status quo of keeping the top teams at the top.

The system was set up campdave and now City are just outspending United, playing them at their own game as it were and the moaning on this thread by Manchester United fans is laughable and hypocritical. What football should be asking itself is why should it take a team that finished mid-tableish for years need to spend those colossal amounts in order to compete. The system in place was that rigged it needed a Manchester City to break the monopoly Manchester Uinted (and to a degree Chelsea) had on the Premiership.

As I have pointed out before Manchester United would have won the Premiership every single year (20 Years) except for 3 if owners had not pumped money into their individual clubs. How is that good for competitive football? City will push United (I hope) all the way but if it were not for City and Chelsea can you imagine how boring football in this country would have become at the top end of the table with Manchester United simply winning it every year. So in that respect I think that Chelsea before hand and now City have been good for football in this country.

Until you look at the system that City operate in you can’t compete with these teams unless you do splash the cash. I only point this out about United as some of their fans see what City are doing is plain wrong and the system that United operate as whiter than white. As a fan of a team that has bounced up and down for many years and was a midtable team when taken over, I don’t see it as many United fans do.

Many United fans have only seen Manchester United successful and indeed starting supporting them from all 4 corners of the country ultimately because they were successful, so of course with no tie to the local area but a tie in to the success they feel that City is a bitter pill to swallow.

I know campdave that you will not agree with a lot of what I just wrote, but I only ask if you are not to bored and switched off after reading such a lengthy post to see it from my point of view. I can see why United fans are worried but do find it hypocritical when they gripe about a team outspending them.

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That's not the point though, is it?

It's not about United doing things wrongly, it's about City not making it better as you imply. How is another fat cat making it even harder for the other clubs a "good thing for football"?
But I never see you Criticising Manchester United in the Manchester United thread for the same actions. I’ll leave you with a quote from a die hard red Gary Neville:-
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"When clubs invest and break up the United, Arsenal or Liverpool domination I think it’s better for the Premier League. I genuinely believe spending to bring in Silva, Dzeko or Aguero is good for football. Do I want to see City win? No, I'm a United fan. But in terms of competition it makes for a better Premier League."
There you go d2000s I hope that was enough of my opinion for you
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Old 23-11-2011, 23:38   #184
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There you go d2000s I hope that was enough of my opinion for you
I'll not get too excited, because last time you expressed an opinion that appeared to be your own it turned out to be plagerised from another forum....... but if its your own work this time, well done, keep it up
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Old 24-11-2011, 00:01   #185
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I'm not claiming City are in the wrong, I'm claiming you are for saying it's "good for the game" when it's not. That may sound like sour grapes, and maybe it is to a certain extent, but I'm just pointing out the hypocricy in that statement. Oh, and to point out, as others have done, football didn't start with the PL or the CL, and United broke the transfer record many times before they started and had that money, albeit the success coincided with their inception(s).

I have to differ with Gary Neville: it makes for a more exciting league, but with all the foreign players, that's not necessarily 'better'. That's not City's fault though.
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Old 24-11-2011, 08:03   #186
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Originally Posted by Citysmith View Post

The system was set up campdave and now City are just outspending United, playing them at their own game as it were and the moaning on this thread by Manchester United fans is laughable and hypocritical. What football should be asking itself is why should it take a team that finished mid-tableish for years need to spend those colossal amounts in order to compete. The system in place was that rigged it needed a Manchester City to break the monopoly Manchester Uinted (and to a degree Chelsea) had on the Premiership.
City, champions of the small teams.

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As I have pointed out before Manchester United would have won the Premiership every single year (20 Years) except for 3 if owners had not pumped money into their individual clubs. How is that good for competitive football? City will push United (I hope) all the way but if it were not for City and Chelsea can you imagine how boring football in this country would have become at the top end of the table with Manchester United simply winning it every year. So in that respect I think that Chelsea before hand and now City have been good for football in this country.
Your own words were "football was already ruined before City". I think this acknowledges that City are not "good for football" (again, your words). Whilst they may shake up the top of the table, this is a very short term view. If City romp to the league this year, are you seriously going to argue that the lack of competition (which you have identified as dull when Man Utd are at the top) is boring. If City qualify for the Champions League for the next five years, when a new status quo is established, and by your own argument, becomes the norm and therefore boring, will you criticise it then? I note you completely neglect to mention Arsenal in your post, who have produced some of the most stunning football since the Premier League was started on a fraction of City and United's spend.

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so of course with no tie to the local area but a tie in to the success they feel that City is a bitter pill to swallow.
Yes, you're from Manchester, we get it.

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I know campdave that you will not agree with a lot of what I just wrote, but I only ask if you are not to bored and switched off after reading such a lengthy post to see it from my point of view. I can see why United fans are worried but do find it hypocritical when they gripe about a team outspending them.
I don't expect you to not enjoy your success. I just find it interesting that you swing from how City are wonderful from football when it seems what you really mean is "they're doing the same things as the other big clubs that I didn't like before City but we're rich now and we have to do it to.

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But I never see you Criticising Manchester United in the Manchester United thread for the same actions. I’ll leave you with a quote from a die hard red Gary Neville:-
Strange fascination you have with what I post. Again, Neville's quote is remarkably short term. I don't expect to see you criticising the lack of competitiveness in the Premier League if City win it five years in a row.

As for the Man Utd thread, I can barely be arsed to post in there because unless Man Utd win every match 10-0, it's a crisis. I've criticised Man Utd's aquisition of foreign youth on many occasions. Don't fall into the trap of thinking I agree with everything Man Utd do just because I support them. Football may have been ruined (your words), but it wasn't just Man Utd that did it.

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Old 24-11-2011, 10:22   #187
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Obviously the league will become stale if we romp to the title and win ad-infinitum (although I'll certainly enjoy the first few). But the point is we wouldn't necessarily have this problem if wealthy owners were allowed to pump money in.

Bill Kenwright's looking for somebody to buy Everton, but who's going to buy it knowing that they can't spend much? Wouldn't it be better if somebody bought them, ploughed money in the team, stadium and facilities and they were challenging at the top?

Yes, it would be great if all teams were run on a small budget, but that's not going to happen. The problem with so-called FFP is that it's a useless middle ground where the current top teams are protected, but nobody can invest to catch up.
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Old 24-11-2011, 10:35   #188
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Bill Kenwright's looking for somebody to buy Everton, but who's going to buy it knowing that they can't spend much? Wouldn't it be better if somebody bought them, ploughed money in the team, stadium and facilities and they were challenging at the top?
FPP isn't designed to prevent this - it's to stop owners coming in and spending money they don't have to prevent repeats of what have happened to the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth recently. It's also to ensure there is parity between clubs in the likes of Spain, Italy and England who are allowed to amass large debts by their league and clubs in Germany and France, where clubs are not permitted to participate domestically unless they demostrate solvency.

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Old 24-11-2011, 10:56   #189
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Wouldn't it be better if somebody bought them, ploughed money in the team, stadium and facilities and they were challenging at the top?
No, because even a 5 year old could see that all that ensues is massive inflation and increased cost for everyone. It is no different to pumping drugs into people to make them run faster. There's no glory or achievement in that.

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Old 24-11-2011, 11:05   #190
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Originally Posted by campdave View Post
FPP isn't designed to prevent this - it's to stop owners coming in and spending money they don't have to prevent repeats of what have happened to the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth recently. It's also to ensure there is parity between clubs in the likes of Spain, Italy and England who are allowed to amass large debts by their league and clubs in Germany and France, where clubs are not permitted to participate domestically unless they demostrate solvency.
FFPR might not be designed to do that but it does. And it prevents owners who have the money from spending it.

Self sufficiency is the key term to stop the Portsmouth/Leeds issue, and it will help that. But that doesn't stop teams running up hundreds of millions in debt so it wont create the parity you mention.

Edit: There is nothing in the FFPR that mentions massive debt as long as it's serviceable. Therefore there is nothing stopping Man City going to a bank, getting a Ł700m loan ( maybe even guaranteed by the owner ) to pre pay 5/6 years salary for the entire squad and staff, and paying say Ł50m a year to that debt. doing that would put us in a far worse position financially but would be fine under FFPR as we would be making "profit" each year.. go figure.

Edit2: We could even do the Chelsea way of getting a "Loan" from the owners who could charge a token interest figure of say 0.1% and im pretty sure that would still count as it's serviceable debt rather than running at a deficit. But our owners would prefer to run the club at zero debt.

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Old 24-11-2011, 12:07   #191
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No, because even a 5 year old could see that all that ensues is massive inflation and increased cost for everyone. It is no different to pumping drugs into people to make them run faster. There's no glory or achievement in that.
Inflation is part of life, get used to it. You'll probably learn that when you leave school.

As to your analogy, it's not like using drugs at all. It's like buying your athlete the best trainers, the best equipment, the best coaching staff, the best backup team and then asking him to go out and see how well he can do.
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Old 24-11-2011, 12:34   #192
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No, no inflation isn't 'part of life' on that scale. Perhaps you could try looking at the wage inflation at your club and comparing it to actual UK inflation rates before making your embarassing statements which hold no water. Perhaps you are comparing the club to somewhere like Mugabe's Zimbabwe? That might explain it, and would certainly be quite apposite.

No, what Man City are doing is not just 'part of life' as the club has had to grossly inflate the wages paid to players in order to entice them to play at a club at which they would otherwise not have given a second glance to. It's basically the equivalent to high class prostitution. All well and good if you have the money and lack of morality to engage in such things but when it impacts upon the legitimacy of the sport in which the club operates it becomes a wider problem.
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Old 24-11-2011, 12:37   #193
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. It is no different to pumping drugs into people to make them run faster.
Another wonderful analogy
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Old 24-11-2011, 12:46   #194
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Bill Kenwright's looking for somebody to buy Everton, but who's going to buy it knowing that they can't spend much? Wouldn't it be better if somebody bought them, ploughed money in the team, stadium and facilities and they were challenging at the top?
My understanding is that Kenwright could find a buyer tomorrow if he just wanted the money. What he is looking for is someone who has Everton's long term future in mind and wouldn't just be buying them to make a short term profit which could leave them in an even worse postion than they are now.
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Old 24-11-2011, 12:51   #195
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My understanding is that Kenwright could find a buyer tomorrow if he just wanted the money. What he is looking for is someone who has Everton's long term future in mind and wouldn't just be buying them to make a short term profit which could leave them in an even worse postion than they are now.
a noble idea, I hope he succeeds...
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Old 24-11-2011, 12:59   #196
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No, no inflation isn't 'part of life' on that scale. Perhaps you could try looking at the wage inflation at your club and comparing it to actual UK inflation rates before making your embarassing statements which hold no water. Perhaps you are comparing the club to somewhere like Mugabe's Zimbabwe? That might explain it, and would certainly be quite apposite.

No, what Man City are doing is not just 'part of life' as the club has had to grossly inflate the wages paid to players in order to entice them to play at a club at which they would otherwise not have given a second glance to. It's basically the equivalent to high class prostitution. All well and good if you have the money and lack of morality to engage in such things but when it impacts upon the legitimacy of the sport in which the club operates it becomes a wider problem.
You are in no position to talk about morality.

You have compared City to a "cancer" on more than one occasion and this week seem to have taken the outrageous tack of bringing the Holocaust into the equation.

Normally I have no time for your views but it's about time that somebody pointed that you're treading a thin line here. I wonder whether you are like this in real life or do you see the internet as some form of security where you are free to air your offensive views?

It's only football for God's sake.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:19   #197
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Intersting deflection technique, but hardly surprising. Anyway, you have a thread dedicated to a club that is hell bent on destroying the national game. I find that highly offensive and, given the unfair practices promoted by the Club, I find it questionable whether the thread belongs in the Sport forum.

The club is a cancer at the heart of the game, there's no question about that. As for the holocaust, yes, the responses of the City fans, even the ones who don't often find time to watch the games, suggest to me that they would have been first in line to claim that they were only following orders in 1945.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:20   #198
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i'm not sure someone airing views that may offend you is a morality issue...
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:40   #199
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FPP isn't designed to prevent this - it's to stop owners coming in and spending money they don't have to prevent repeats of what have happened to the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth recently. It's also to ensure there is parity between clubs in the likes of Spain, Italy and England who are allowed to amass large debts by their league and clubs in Germany and France, where clubs are not permitted to participate domestically unless they demostrate solvency.
FFPR might not be designed to do that but it does. And it prevents owners who have the money from spending it.

.
Absolute rubbish, spending on stadiums, youth facilities etc are excluded from the equation. Its designed to let billionaire owners improve a club from the bottom up.... the right way.
No good if you want instant, hollow success though i suppose.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:45   #200
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Inflation is part of life, get used to it. You'll probably learn that when you leave school.
So, to be clear, in your opinion man city, and chelsea before them, have had no effect on salary and transfer fee inflation in the premier league??
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