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Old 08-09-2007, 15:33   #41
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Originally posted by andybhoy
Those last 3 episodes aren't in remotely the same class as the previous 3. Lumping them into the same catgory is at best selfish and insulting.

As for keeping the format - the format is good. Nothing wrong with the format. The problem has always been the 1 or 2 writers who are heavily overrated. RTD takes up half of the episodes, and is half as good as most of the other writers. So Moffat would be a huge improvement.

If RTD leaves in a couple of years, it will be the best thing that has happened to the show since the bbc brought it back. RTD did a decent job but this fawning over him, like only he could have done it, is just plain silly.
I agree that the last three episodes of Series 3 are not as good as "Human Nature/The Family of Blood/Blink" but they are still very good episodes imho, but I don't read anything in that RTD interview that implies that RTD believes his three parter to be in the same category.

RTD wrote 6 (if you count The Runaway Bride) episodes out of the 14 that made up Series 3 which is less than half the episodes and out of them "Smith and Jones" was the best series opener yet, "Gridlock" is a classic episode and probably the finest single episode story that RTD has yet produced whilst the final three episodes that make up the Master trilogy are better than quite a lot of the stuff seen during Series 3 (only "Human Nature/The Family of Blood", "Blink" and "Gridlock" are better than those episodes imho). Although I agree that Moffat has written better episodes so far if he becomes show runner he may copy RTD in writing many more episodes and who's to say that the quality of his stuff will be to the same standard as "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances", "The Girl in the Fireplace" and "Blink".

RTD has done a brilliant job in shaping the format of the show since it's return and the fact that it has proved to be so successful and is still doing great business three years after it's relaunch proves that RTD must be doing something right for the show to continue to appeal.
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Old 08-09-2007, 18:05   #42
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Originally Posted by Dene View Post
But Moffat doesn't think RTD is a terrible writer; he thinks he's a terrific writer.

unless you know him personally, you only know what he has said in interviews. in public he says RTD is great, how do we know what he says to his missus when he gets home?

I worked for a company once that was utterly ****, totally clueless. However to the customers i said it was great. Once i left i no longer had to say it was great and told eveyone that it was actually ****.
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Old 08-09-2007, 18:27   #43
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What a dick.
Sums it up perfectly

Oh well, Series 4 will be plenty of camp fun like the last episode of series 3 then, making a ridicule of the show.

I wonder if the "hiatus" of sorts will become more like the same that occurred in the original series, and series 5 becomes an ultimatum from the Beeb of "this better be good, otherwise we end it".


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But Moffat doesn't think RTD is a terrible writer; he thinks he's a terrific writer.
Likely his recent award of a Hugo (for the excellent Girl in the Fireplace) means he's not going to badmouth his paymaster, and more so when he won it over RTD's nominations.
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Old 08-09-2007, 18:36   #44
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Originally Posted by Dene View Post
But Moffat doesn't think RTD is a terrible writer; he thinks he's a terrific writer.
Yes, but not as a Doctor Who writer.

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I presume he means that Who was never coming back unless with RTD at the helm.
Which is not true. The series had been commissioned before RTD was on board.

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There was no shortlist of other potential showrunners had he declined -- they wanted to work with him.
They did, but there was a shortlist. The BBC had been trying to regain the TV rights to Doctor Who for years after the co-ownership deal with America and then BBC films. The series was coming back with or without RTD. Lets remember this fact now, and not forget it.
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Old 08-09-2007, 18:43   #45
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I wonder if the "hiatus" of sorts will become more like the same that occurred in the original series, and series 5 becomes an ultimatum from the Beeb of "this better be good, otherwise we end it".
Why would it ? it's a huge critical and commercial success - not on here maybe - but to the rest of the country.

When Dr Who was cancelled last time, it was a national joke with flagging audiences. Now DW is seen as a jewel in the BBC's crown and the audience share steamrollers anything in it's way.
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Old 08-09-2007, 18:58   #46
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Much as I loved Human Nature, I still enjoyed the last two episodes more, so there, that that, forums taste mafia
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Old 08-09-2007, 19:56   #47
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Originally Posted by LooneyJetman View Post
Perhaps not dark, but certainly I think they alienated part of the core audience - children.

My son refuses to watch Blink again and, whilst he will watch it, Human Nature/Family of Blood doesn't appeal to him as much as some of the more mainstream episodes, possibly because he doesn't really understand what's going on.

.

I disagree...my son absolutely loved Blink, Human Nature and Family of Blood. I'd say it depends on the age of the children. I wouldn't say Doctor Who is for younger kids. My son's 11 and loves it.
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Old 08-09-2007, 20:33   #48
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When Dr Who was cancelled last time, it was a national joke with flagging audiences. Now DW is seen as a jewel in the BBC's crown and the audience share steamrollers anything in it's way.
The way RTD is talking about series 4 I can see it becoming a national joke easy enough!

Remember the original series was undergoing a renewed period of success when JNT took over. 3 series later and it was becoming a joke with flagging audiences (2 more and it was just about dead, although 1 of those series was almost a deliberate attempt to kill it).
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Old 09-09-2007, 05:14   #49
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Originally Posted by DarkAvenger View Post
I agree that the last three episodes of Series 3 are not as good as "Human Nature/The Family of Blood/Blink" but they are still very good episodes imho, but I don't read anything in that RTD interview that implies that RTD believes his three parter to be in the same category.
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I wasn't that enthralled with the conclusion, thinking that once again RTD had chucked rather too much into the mix and the result was somewhat of a confusing mess.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:52   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAvenger
I agree that the last three episodes of Series 3 are not as good as "Human Nature/The Family of Blood/Blink" but they are still very good episodes imho, but I don't read anything in that RTD interview that implies that RTD believes his three parter to be in the same category.
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Originally Posted by DarkAvenger
I wasn't that enthralled with the conclusion, thinking that once again RTD had chucked rather too much into the mix and the result was somewhat of a confusing mess.
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Originally Posted by Grandmaster
People are entitled to change their opinions about something "Grandmaster" and my opinion of the three part series 3 conclusion has changed considerably from when I first saw them back in June to the point where I actually think they are very good indeed. Anyway I always liked "Utopia" and "The Sound of Drums", it was only "Last of the Time Lords" which I had some issues with and although I still think there are some flaws with that particular episode on rewatching it again recently I found that I really really enjoyed it and it is typical of the Russell T Davies episodes in that you get a lot more from them the more they are watched.
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Old 09-09-2007, 13:02   #51
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and it is typical of the Russell T Davies episodes in that you get a lot more from them the more they are watched.

Agreed, you learn when to fast forward all the childish bits, all the random musical interludes, the gay references. Doesn't leave much left unfortunately
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Old 09-09-2007, 13:23   #52
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I tend to find the rtd ones harder to rewatch than the others.

S3 is getting a repeat on BBC3 - it was not easy sitting through Smith and Jones again - some of it is just awful (the shoe thing in particular).

I don't find any particular depth to them. Of course, none of them are as bad as the two S3 dalek episodes.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:12   #53
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Which is not true. The series had been commissioned before RTD was on board.
I do not believe this to be the case. I'm happy to be proved wrong -- please tell me specifically where this information came from.

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They did, but there was a shortlist. The BBC had been trying to regain the TV rights to Doctor Who for years after the co-ownership deal with America and then BBC films. The series was coming back with or without RTD. Lets remember this fact now, and not forget it.
Again, I don't believe this to be the case. Once more, show me the evidence that the show was coming back with or without RTD. The fact that they were trying to regain the rights proves nothing on its own -- why wouldn't they want the rights to their own property back again?

Unless either one of us can prove categorically what we think to be the case, I don't think it's appropriate to call the issue into question. And the reason I am doing so is because it was you who began the questioning.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:39   #54
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I do not believe this to be the case. I'm happy to be proved wrong -- please tell me specifically where this information came from.

Again, I don't believe this to be the case. Once more, show me the evidence that the show was coming back with or without RTD. The fact that they were trying to regain the rights proves nothing on its own -- why wouldn't they want the rights to their own property back again?

Unless either one of us can prove categorically what we think to be the case, I don't think it's appropriate to call the issue into question. And the reason I am doing so is because it was you who began the questioning.

We covered this in a previous thread.I'm not going over it again.There's plenty of evidence. If you don't want to read the thread then buy the book on the 2005 series, it will tell you everything.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:39   #55
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Of course, none of them are as bad as the two S3 dalek episodes.
I don't think anything is as bad as those... truly dire in every sense of the word.

I dread what her story for S4 will be like!
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:48   #56
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I tend to find the rtd ones harder to rewatch than the others.
I think it depends. I find that some of his stuff does not bear any kind of repeat viewing whatsoever (Rose, End of the World, New Earth) whereas some of the more maligned Davies episodes such as Boomtown and The Long Game stand out because at least conceptually they have great premises and some nice ideas sprinkled throughout.

Unfortunately when it comes to his event pieces (Christmas specials, season finales) you never know what you're going to get. The commonality appears to be that when Davies is writing what he thinks are crowd-pleasing moments, he can completely misjudge them and descend into the realm of pantomime - hence the shockingly terrible Runaway Bride and the cringingly bad Last of the Time Lords. Compare and contrast with the S1 finale and to a lesser extent The Christmas Invasion.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:18   #57
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We covered this in a previous thread.I'm not going over it again.There's plenty of evidence. If you don't want to read the thread then buy the book on the 2005 series, it will tell you everything.
Which book? The Shaun Lyons one?

What's with the 'nuts' smilie incidentally? You queried something, I replied, you tore it to bits. You expect me to let that go?

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Old 10-09-2007, 17:56   #58
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Originally posted by andybhoy
S3 is getting a repeat on BBC3 - it was not easy sitting through Smith and Jones again - some of it is just awful (the shoe thing in particular).
Watched "The Runaway Bride" and "Smith and Jones" again yesterday and found them to be very enjoyable indeed, certainly rewatchable and the "shoe thing" was hilarious. From many of the comments on here it would seem that a lot of people believe that "Doctor Who" is supposed to be a dark and gritty sci-fi show. It was never that during the "Classic Series" and it is not that in the "New Series", it's a thoroughly entertaining family show and RTD has got a point in his DWM interview when he says that the final 6 episodes of Series 3 probably went a little too much towards the dark side with very little humour, in fact I would have to say that "Last of the Time Lords" is probably the darkest the show has ever got in it's history.
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Old 10-09-2007, 18:05   #59
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Originally Posted by DarkAvenger View Post
From many of the comments on here it would seem that a lot of people believe that "Doctor Who" is supposed to be a dark and gritty sci-fi show.
thats not true at all, people liked the little bit of darker moments in Human nature and Blink was not dark at all, maybe a bit scary for younger people
edit: I think most people want a balanced show


Last of the Time Lords was darker at first but it had gollum/tinkerbell Dr saving the world then hitting the giant reset button, so it never happened

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Old 10-09-2007, 18:10   #60
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the "shoe thing" was hilarious.
I am absolutely stunned by your choice of words. Did you have a fit of giggles, or laugh raucously? Perhaps you had to pause it for 10 minutes while you composed youraelf and finally stopped bursting out in fits of laughter?

Seriously?

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in fact I would have to say that "Last of the Time Lords" is probably the darkest the show has ever got in it's history.
It was all a bit panto. It certainly wasn't "dark".

Not really sure why you decided I must want Who to be a dark and gritty sci fi drama, but you couldn't be more wrong. Not even if you described the "shoe thing" as "hilarious".
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