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Old 26-12-2005, 16:07   #41
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I thought the production values were excellent, Tennant was fine, but the story itself was awful.

Growing a new hand was perhaps a new low point in a Doctor Who regeneration story.

Russell T Davies just can't seem to grasp that the Doctor defeats his opponents through intelligence and guile, not through violence - ie sword-fighting.

The Harriet Jones stuff at the end was blatant politics from the writer and simply not in the spirit of Doctor Who. If Davies wants to put a political point across he should find a more subtle way of doing it.
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Old 26-12-2005, 17:21   #42
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Enjoyed it - DT was good, and I loved the Lion King line - hope to see more of that.

Question: does anyone know what the song at the end was?
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Old 26-12-2005, 18:27   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grandmaster
Russell T Davies just can't seem to grasp that the Doctor defeats his opponents through intelligence and guile, not through violence - ie sword-fighting.
And we never saw the third Doctor using Venusian Aikido did we or did I just dream that. And another example is the fourth Doctor wielding a sword. I think you'll find that the Doctor has on occasion used violence as a method of defeating his enemies. Anyway, the swordfight was part of the Sycorax honour system in that they respect the rules of combat and the challenge and the Doctor knew that this was the correct way to deal with the threat. As it is the Doctor beat the Sycorax leader but spared his life and only when the Sycorax leader tried to stab him in the back did the Doctor then use the satsuma as a means to disposing of the sneaky blighter.

Last edited by DarkAvenger; 27-12-2005 at 13:31.
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Old 26-12-2005, 18:39   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAvenger
As it is the Doctor beat the Sycorax leader but spared his life and only when the Sycorax leader tried to stab him in the back did the Doctor then use the satsuma as a means to disposing of the sneaky blighter.
As the Doctor said himself:
"No second chances. I’m that sort of man."

I loved the "Don't you think she looks tired?" bit, nice bit of manipulation from the Doctor. I don't think it was political either, just how comments like that can spread and make people wonder "is there something in that?"

Loved this, I was grinning like a looney all the way through. Fantastic fun with some great bits and pieces going on, Tennant is brilliant and highly watchable. Can't wait for the next series proper.
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Old 26-12-2005, 18:45   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohood
As the Doctor said himself:
"No second chances. I’m that sort of man."
Yes this was the best, most defining moment for Tennant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohood
I loved the "Don't you think she looks tired?" bit, nice bit of manipulation from the Doctor. I don't think it was political either, just how comments like that can spread and make people wonder "is there something in that?"
It was more like an oblique reference to the beginning of the end of Tony Blair's reign as Prime Minister - almost word for word, in fact. More cleverly it was an allusion to the paranoia that surrounds New Labour clinging on to power. VERY political in other words.

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Originally Posted by DarkAvenger
And we never saw the third Doctor using Venusian Aikido did we or did I just dream that. And another example is the fourth Doctor wielding a sword.
Violence was always a form of defence or the last resort in previous stories.

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Originally Posted by DarkAvenger
Anyway, the swordfight was part of the Sycorax honour system in that they respect the rules of combat and the challenge and the Doctor knew that this was the correct way to deal with the threat.
The fact that the Sycorax chose to ignore their own honour system showed how much regard they have for it - ie, not a lot.

In this respect, Harriet Jones did the right thing by her own value system. If the leader of Sycorax didn't abide by their own system, why should his minions? And why didn't she mention that as justification for blowing the muthas into ash?


Another criticism for this episode was the really poor set-up for Torchwood. Viewers would have been left wondering, "Whaaa...?"

Last edited by Grandmaster; 26-12-2005 at 18:47.
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Old 26-12-2005, 19:44   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster
The Harriet Jones stuff at the end was blatant politics from the writer and simply not in the spirit of Doctor Who. If Davies wants to put a political point across he should find a more subtle way of doing it.
Not forgetting the bit at the beginning when she said that the US President "Wasn't her Boss" and something about not going to War on his say-so, that stood out like a sore thumb to me.
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Old 26-12-2005, 21:06   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster

Russell T Davies just can't seem to grasp that the Doctor defeats his opponents through intelligence and guile, not through violence - ie sword-fighting.
Have you never seen The Sea Devils? Massive Sword fight between him and The Master. Besides, he used his intelligence. It was the Prime Minister who used lethal force, hence the Doctors anger with her.

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Growing a new hand was perhaps a new low point in a Doctor Who regeneration story.
No, it was magic. Pure magic.

Quote:
The Harriet Jones stuff at the end was blatant politics from the writer and simply not in the spirit of Doctor Who. If Davies wants to put a political point across he should find a more subtle way of doing it.
You've clearly not watched the Jon Pertwee era of the show. Plenty of politics between him, the brig and government officials. In fact, part of the Doctors speech to the PM near the end was almost word for word dialogue lifted from Spearhead From Space.

Last edited by thescrounger; 26-12-2005 at 21:21.
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Old 26-12-2005, 21:57   #48
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Should of had the children in need bit at the start. Billy over the top crying. Poor story overall.Tennant is very good.
6/10
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Old 26-12-2005, 22:44   #49
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Originally Posted by ohood
Loved this, I was grinning like a looney all the way through. Fantastic fun with some great bits and pieces going on, Tennant is brilliant and highly watchable. Can't wait for the next series proper.
Can't put it any better myself; almost laughed out loud in pure joy at the quick shot of the Cyberman (well in truth, I did )
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Old 27-12-2005, 13:36   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grandmaster
The fact that the Sycorax chose to ignore their own honour system showed how much regard they have for it - ie, not a lot.

In this respect, Harriet Jones did the right thing by her own value system. If the leader of Sycorax didn't abide by their own system, why should his minions? And why didn't she mention that as justification for blowing the muthas into ash?


Another criticism for this episode was the really poor set-up for Torchwood. Viewers would have been left wondering, "Whaaa...?"
Only the Sycorax leader did not abide by their own system and he paid for that with his life, therefore by seeing this, the rest of the Sycorax realised that they should not be equally sneaky and thus abided by the laws and retreated as instructed by the Doctor.

As for the Torchwood set-up, personally I thought it was rather neat, leaves people wondering just what sort of organisation that Torchwood are.
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Old 27-12-2005, 14:06   #51
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I really enjoyed it, espcially when the Doctor woke up. Was good lighthearted entertainment for Christmas Day.

Anyone know when we are likely to see Torchwood on our screens.
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Old 27-12-2005, 15:02   #52
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The ending was political but only in the sense that the Doctor was always disgusted by that kind of retaliation. I thought it was not at all dissimilar to the end of "The Silurians". The politics were nothing like as blatantly agit-prop as those in "The Green Death".
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Old 27-12-2005, 15:57   #53
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Unlikely to win any end of season polls I'd imagine, but good amusing fun for the most part. My major reservation about the 10th Doctor is his overuse of pop cultural references. Three was going overboard a bit - will he and Rose be quoting the Parrot Sketch at each other before the season's out?

Apart from that, a good solid start and the whole family were chuckling away at it.

And my Dad bought me the boxset for Christmas!

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Anyone know when we are likely to see Torchwood on our screens.
As I understand it, Who itself will run March-June again next year, and then Torchwood will start on BBC3 during the summer.
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Old 27-12-2005, 16:38   #54
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Second most watched programme of the day, with more than 9 Million viewers.
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Old 27-12-2005, 17:39   #55
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"As I understand it, Who itself will run March-June again next year, and then Torchwood will start on BBC3 during the summer."

Actually i've heard that the transmission of the next series may be split in two, to avoid DW colliding with the World Cup. Run it before Easter (to avoid the World Cup) and the series will eventually catch up on itself (filming goes on till April this time with several months of F/X/postproduction etc required). Run it in the same late March- mid June slot and Who runs into the World Cup, with games every Saturday in the 7 o'clock slot. So i wouldn't be surprised to see Who broadcast from Easter - late May and then from July-end August. Just speculation at this point though...........
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Old 27-12-2005, 18:19   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
The ending was political but only in the sense that the Doctor was always disgusted by that kind of retaliation. I thought it was not at all dissimilar to the end of "The Silurians". The politics were nothing like as blatantly agit-prop as those in "The Green Death".
The ending was nothing more than an extremely thinly veiled pop at New Labour - its war-like aggression and power-crazed paranoia. While personally I agree wholeheartedly with what Davies is saying, I simply don't think it's the place for this kind of thing. Political commentary works best within Sci-Fi when used in allegory.

I simply think it leaves a sour taste in the mouth for a writer to so blatantly expound his beliefs about the current political status quo within a show like Doctor Who.

The 'massive weapons of destruction' in Aliens of London/World War Three trod a fine line in its condemnation of New Labour and the Iraq conflict, but this was just a step too far IMO. Doctor Who should be smarter than that.

That said, perhaps episodes set in the near future will feature the kind of ID card-fuelled, microchipped Police State society that New Labour seems to want (perhaps the Cybermen episodes?).

I think the most disturbing thing about the ending - political hobbyhorses apart - was the notion of the UK owning a Death Star-style weapon of mass destruction. Even the visual effect itself paid homage to the Death Star laser...

Last edited by Grandmaster; 27-12-2005 at 22:36.
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Old 27-12-2005, 18:53   #57
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Liked the new doctor - when he was in it - but I thought the script was very childish, even for a family show, and the special effects varied from pretty good to downright dodgy.

I'm getting very fed up with the show going back to London and spending time with Mickey, and Rose's Mum. Too much like a soap opera for my tastes!

Still, from the teaser it looks like there could be a few good stories in the new season.

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Old 27-12-2005, 20:05   #58
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really enjoyed it. Metalgearal, could you not have videod, tivo'd, sky+'d or dvd recorded it to watch at a time more suitable for yourself?
Actually, no, couldn't do a single one of the above
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Old 27-12-2005, 20:54   #59
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I quite enjoyed it although it had plot holes you could drive a spaceship through.
Didn't think there were any plot holes, just a bit of a shallow plot.
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Old 27-12-2005, 21:14   #60
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I really enjoyed it, but the political points were indeed far too prominent - particularly the "He is not my boss and he is certainly not turning this into a war" line. I agree to an extent with the sentiments expressed, but they just shouldn't have been there.
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