DOCTOR WHO Series 5 (1) Production & pre-aired thread *SPOILERS*

[Wendelius]

Despite all the critics here, I watched the 2 episodes with the kids yesterday and we all had fun. First part was too erratic but part 2 made up for it.

Fun episodes and a nice way to say goodbye to Tennant. I didn't find the ending overindulgent or long.

Wendelius

[Guest 491]

I just re-watched Series Two's two-parter 'The Impossible Planet' / 'The Satan Pit' and was bowled over by how much better it was than the recent 'specials'. I then came here and checked out the original discussion of each episode, and while they were generally well-liked, there was a lot of criticism of things like references to Eastenders and plot holes concerning the physics of black holes.

Now while many of those criticisms are perfectly valid, those episodes were a masterpiece compared to 'The End of Time'. It's made me realise what a huge quality drop there has been of late (in terms of writing, at least) and yet there are still people who found something to enjoy in the Christmas specials. That's fair enough of course, as tastes vary massively, but I wonder if many people's expectations have dropped over the years.

When you realise you've actually forgotten just how much the show used to be capable of, you know it's time for a change. Please, Moffat, don't let us down!

[jpig]

Although I enjoyed the Christmas episodes, I'm glad that the whole production team is moving on because I agree with the above comment - there is a noticeable drop in quality and RTD has been given a little too much freedom with his scripts to the point that the actual story sometimes doesn't make sense in a rush to get to the next set-piece.

[AndyWilson]

There was good bits and bad bits, luckily more of the latter

[Guest 58450]

Originally Posted by SithLordSi

I just re-watched Series Two's two-parter 'The Impossible Planet' / 'The Satan Pit' and was bowled over by how much better it was than the recent 'specials'. I then came here and checked out the original discussion of each episode, and while they were generally well-liked, there was a lot of criticism of things like references to Eastenders and plot holes concerning the physics of black holes.

Now while many of those criticisms are perfectly valid, those episodes were a masterpiece compared to 'The End of Time'. It's made me realise what a huge quality drop there has been of late (in terms of writing, at least) and yet there are still people who found something to enjoy in the Christmas specials. That's fair enough of course, as tastes vary massively, but I wonder if many people's expectations have dropped over the years.

When you realise you've actually forgotten just how much the show used to be capable of, you know it's time for a change. Please, Moffat, don't let us down!

Unfortunately due to the annoying single thread thing it's not easy to find but the discussion of the Waters of Mars (?) a few months back had similar questions about the science. There were duff bits of that but over all it was a good episode, though probably not as good as the Satan Pit one.

I think the writing's generally consistent with maybe Ecclestone's season being the best but probably that was to do with expectation more than anything. Certainly the standout stories of later series were better than his, which concentrated too much on Billie.

Here we had only five episodes (the Christmas special seems to be counted as the start to a new series) and over those there was about the same mix of the good and the bad we've seen all through.

[cliff homewood]

My two pennies worth were that its a fitting ending to RTD's run as it contains elements of the best and worst of RTD, has some moving set pieces, but how badly set up they were were ridiculous. After the big battle for instance the Doctor wakes up, The Master has dissappeared so assume he's sucked in with the Timelords, then we have WIlf in the booth so we have to make up a line of dialogue about there being masses of radiation channelled into that booth to explain the situation, right that's done, we can now get on with the emotional scene. I think Chekov's gun needed to be done more for this scene, we saw the booth in the first ep when Wilf hid in it, I'm assuming this was RTD doing his set up, but I felt it was not enough, we should have been told why the booth was there, not just a convenient hiding place (unless we were and I forgot!)

There were loads of bits like that which on a lesser story I would have been annoyed, but as mentioned our expectation of good storytelling has been battered down and we now expect these things as par for the course with RTD, and try to look past that for the good, the first part was tedium, but the second had a load of good, though can't believe the Doctor had time to go visiting and pop down the shops during his death rattles. And then the TARDIS has to catch fire to give Matt Smith a dramatic intro. Yes both ridiculous and way too over-indulgent. Also the continuation of the Doctor falling apart as a character from Waters of Mars wasn't there. This felt like a standalone 2 parter, after all of RTD going on about it being like a 3 parter of his death.

On the Doctor dying, surely its getting unoriginal now his body being poisoned in various ways, I did for a brief sec think not again, if I remember rightly - third spider venom, fifth actual poison, ninth - time energy and now tenth poisoned by radiation (which someone pointed out he expelled through his toe in Smith and Jones (another example of how mind-numbingly cringeworthy some of his ideas are)). I am surprised the most obvious one hasn't been done yet, exterminated by a Dalek, is it because it is too obvious?

[gavinhanly]

Originally Posted by TheoGB

Unfortunately due to the annoying single thread thing it's not easy to find but the discussion of the Waters of Mars (?)...

Indeed - when the new series starts, can we go back to having individual threads per episode?

[Guest 67090]

Originally Posted by cliff homewood

I am surprised the most obvious one hasn't been done yet, exterminated by a Dalek, is it because it is too obvious?

We had that with the 'fake' regeneration in the season 4 finale didn't we, though I suppose it doesn't really count.

[Guest 70273]

Originally Posted by SithLordSi

I just re-watched Series Two's two-parter 'The Impossible Planet' / 'The Satan Pit' and was bowled over by how much better it was than the recent 'specials'. I then came here and checked out the original discussion of each episode, and while they were generally well-liked, there was a lot of criticism of things like references to Eastenders and plot holes concerning the physics of black holes.

Now while many of those criticisms are perfectly valid, those episodes were a masterpiece compared to 'The End of Time'. It's made me realise what a huge quality drop there has been of late (in terms of writing, at least) and yet there are still people who found something to enjoy in the Christmas specials. That's fair enough of course, as tastes vary massively, but I wonder if many people's expectations have dropped over the years.

When you realise you've actually forgotten just how much the show used to be capable of, you know it's time for a change. Please, Moffat, don't let us down!

The specials should have been evenly spaced throughout the year and been strongly thematically linked. Wilf could have even been the one travelling companion thoughout perhaps. I enjoyed bits of some of them and had a tear (well several) in my eye watching Tennant go but still the "season" could have been so much more.

[ajr90]

Originally Posted by cliff homewood

And then the TARDIS has to catch fire to give Matt Smith a dramatic intro.

I think it was less to give Smith a dramatic info and more an extension of RTD saying "You're not playing with my toys!", destroying the TARDIS so Moffat has to make a new one. To go with his new Doctor, new enemies, and new supporting cast.

[neilalford]

Wasn't hugely impressed with the first part, but did enjoy the second, thought the resolution of the 4 knocks thing was nicely done, realised what it was going to be just before it happened, but was nicely played.

Also quite a few nice little nods to various events and a few little in-jokes, Jessica Stevenson's character being called Verity Newman for instance. Not quite sure about Dalton's character being Rassilon though, doesn't seem to fit the timeline could just be he happens to have the same name or possibly wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff, also, was that the Hand of Omega he was wielding?

As for the mystery woman, I thought it might have been Susan, the Doctor's Grandaughter, as she looked about right and is one of the few female timelords that we know the Doctor had a close relationship with.

Trailer looked good though and have to agree with what someone else said, Smith reminded me of a cross between Tennant and Davison, some good scenes in that trailer though, so hopefully the series will live up to it.

[hookbeak]

Originally Posted by ajr90

I think it was less to give Smith a dramatic info and more an extension of RTD saying "You're not playing with my toys!", destroying the TARDIS so Moffat has to make a new one. To go with his new Doctor, new enemies, and new supporting cast.

based on what exactly ? why on earth would RTD try and make things difficult for his successor - especially seeing as it's a) a friend of his b) his most trusted writer and c) his choice to leave.

Also it makes no sense whatsoever as if he wanted moffat could just rebuild the set exactly the same and we'd all just assume the doctor had fixed it.

[Guest 58450]

Yeah, presumably that final bit was Moffat's request...

[cliff homewood]

thats what i was hoping, there may be a legitimate reason for it explained in his first story unlike RTD with his Titanic crashing inot the side of the frigging TARDIS.

Susan, a good call, so far people have been saying future Donna (being part timelord now) or the Doctors Mum, leaving to the quaint theory that Donna is the Dr's Mom!

[mnementh]

If the Time Lords resurrected the Master to fight the Daleks, it makes sense they would have bought back Rassilon as well.

I thought the woman was the Drs mother - but do like that it was left unconfirmed

[Guest 10592]

I'm sure that when they were talking about the woman, the Doctor seemed to give Donna a very particular glance. We can speculate all we want but I suspect Davies doesn't know either. Partly because he just makes up anything he fancies to fill the moment ("oh! let's have the Doctor fall hundreds of feet - that'll look good!!!11"), and partly because it's clear they are related to the weeping angels and obviously Moffat has plans for them.

No issues about Rassilon either in terms of the resurrection. Even in the Five Doctors they were not actually sure he was really dead. My only problem with that is that essentially it was yet another "kitchen sink" moment - Davies just threw it in there and it had zero impact on the plot whatsoever. Big bads don't get much bigger, but the opportunity to do something with it was completely wasted: a touch worthy of the lamest fan fiction no less.

[Roy]

Originally Posted by Grandmaster

We can speculate all we want but I suspect Davies doesn't know either. Partly because he just makes up anything he fancies to fill the moment ("oh! let's have the Doctor fall hundreds of feet - that'll look good!!!11"),

That's exactly what RTD writes this show like, he has no idea what a well constructed story is, in fact I believe the odd times he's got it right have been accidents rather than some latent talent.

It may well have been Moffat that broke the links with the old in that final scene, if he has any sense he'll put daylght between him and the retarded years that RTD has been at the helm.

[ajr90]

Originally Posted by hookbeak

based on what exactly ? why on earth would RTD try and make things difficult for his successor - especially seeing as it's a) a friend of his b) his most trusted writer and c) his choice to leave.

Also it makes no sense whatsoever as if he wanted moffat could just rebuild the set exactly the same and we'd all just assume the doctor had fixed it.

Perhaps it was unfair of me to characterise it in quite the way I did, but it makes absolute sense. So far next year we have a new show-runner, a new Doctor, and a new companion. It makes perfect sense that we'd be getting a new TARDIS too. In fact, I may be remembering it wrongly, but didn't it used to be the case that each new regeneration would change the TARDIS interior to their tastes and that it's only been in the RTD era that we've had a fixed interior? And Moffat, I understand, has taken the show back to its roots a bit in other ways too.

And, certainly, if I were taking over the show, I'd want to distance it as much as possible from the RTD era by putting my own stamp on it. So, yeah, as has been said above, it could be that Moffat said "I want a new interior", so RTD said "Can I blow the old one up then?"

(To clarify why I was unfair: don't forget RTD has ruined the timelords and Gallifrey for EVERYONE now. Maybe it's stupidity rather than malice, I don't know. But even so.)

[Guest 10592]

Originally Posted by Roy

That's exactly what RTD writes this show like, he has no idea what a well constructed story is, in fact I believe the odd times he's got it right have been accidents rather than some latent talent.

I think he knows perfectly well what a well constructed story is, but he's got his template for Christmas specials and to a lesser extent season finales and it's all about stringing "moments" and "spectaculars" together as opposed to telling any kind of coherent story.

The crazy thing is, you go back to series one and the Christmas Invasion and it's almost like a different show. Aside from the Slitheen and the burping wheelie bin, it's amazingly well-pitched pretty much from start to finish. Even the less decent episodes like Rose, The Long Game and Boom Town stand head and shoulders over a lot of his later stuff.

The Parting of the Ways is ten times the story that the End of Time was.

[Harsin]

Rose must hold the record for character with most emotional farewell scenes.