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Old 29-12-2019, 20:11   #3741
jockosjungle
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Yeh its getting to the point where its based on who has the biggest nose or something, but if you're gonna look at decisions, you can't really make the incorrect decision cos it was a bit close. This is what people wanted isn't it?
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Old 30-12-2019, 02:40   #3742
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The rules were not made to be implemented by machine precision. VAR is horrible. Football played by humans and should be refereed by humans - as it has been since it was invented.
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Old 30-12-2019, 11:57   #3743
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VAR was bought in including for offsides because human linos were making to many stupid RESULT CHANGING mistakes.

In most cases VAR for offsides is fine, and has made the right decision, just takes too long on occasion. What doesn't help its cause is fans, who clearly don't know how it works, claiming it is "just guessing" and using a non-existent 'benegit of the doubt' rule when they disagree with tight decisions.

I get totally confused by pundits who claim stuff like "how can you be offside by a toe?" ... erm cos the rules say you can be and we now have the technology to 'prove' it. Frankly, for me, it is damn sight better than players being able to score winning goals after being 10-15 yards offside !!!!
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Old 30-12-2019, 12:41   #3744
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Originally Posted by nutter45 View Post
VAR FTW

Seriously though, the offsides are ridiculous now. Needs a total rethink to create a margin of doubt in favour of the attacker.
Agreed. With regards the offside decisions. Forget changing the rule, you just need some margin of error built in to the system to stop all these ridiculous offsides given by mm that no-one wants to see.

You simply draw the two lines as you do now from each body part. Then you press a button to make them both wider. If they overlap it's onside. If there's a gap it's offside. The exact amount would have to be decided by reviewing previous tight decisions, by players and ex-refs. It could be 5cm, 10cm, whatever. As long as everyone looks at it and can say "yeah that's just offside".

Seems a simple solution to me.

The whole which frame are they using is explained on the Premier League website. The cameras are all 50fps, and they use the first frame where the ball comes into contact with the passer's foot (not when it leaves the foot). So that should always be pretty consistent.
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Old 30-12-2019, 13:33   #3745
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Agreed. With regards the offside decisions. Forget changing the rule, you just need some margin of error built in to the system to stop all these ridiculous offsides given by mm that no-one wants to see.

You simply draw the two lines as you do now from each body part. Then you press a button to make them both wider. If they overlap it's onside. If there's a gap it's offside. The exact amount would have to be decided by reviewing previous tight decisions, by players and ex-refs. It could be 5cm, 10cm, whatever. As long as everyone looks at it and can say "yeah that's just offside".

Seems a simple solution to me.
So exactly like how it is currently done but without the 'making the lines wider'; but all that does is increase the chance of making an incorrect decision ??!!?? Also bear in mind the current lines, shown on TV, are already much wider than what VAR sees/uses so that they can be seen on a TV.

As you say the moment they pick is accurate to 1/50th of a second - that seems pretty accurate to me.

What the VAR moaners should be more concerned about is how VAR allowed City's first goal yesterday - despite the blatant infringement by the referee who, to be fair to VAR, should have stopped play himself.

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 30-12-2019 at 13:49.
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Old 30-12-2019, 17:57   #3746
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So do you now agree Adam that you can be offside by an armpit,as you were raging against Firminos goal being disallowed against Villa not so long ago.
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Old 30-12-2019, 18:00   #3747
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So do you now agree Adam that you can be offside by an armpit,as you were raging against Firminos goal being disallowed against Villa not so long ago.
No you can't be offside by an armpit since it is impossible to score a goal legitimately with an armpit
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Old 30-12-2019, 19:56   #3748
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Quote:
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I get totally confused by pundits who claim stuff like "how can you be offside by a toe?" ... erm cos the rules say you can be and we now have the technology to 'prove' it.
Football's law-makers say the video assistant referee system should not be "too forensic" when it comes to offsides - and should only be used to reverse "clear and obvious" errors.

Five goals in the Premier League were ruled out at the weekend for marginal offsides, leading some managers and players to criticise VAR.

Lukas Brud, general secretary of the International Football Association Board, said: "With VAR we see some things that are going in a direction that we may need to re-adjust."

He said the body would reissue guidance on VAR's use after its annual general meeting in February

"In theory, 1mm offside is offside, but
if a decision is taken that a player is not offside and the VAR is trying to identify through looking at five, six, seven, 10, 12 cameras whether or not it was offside, then the original decision should stand.

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Old 30-12-2019, 21:54   #3749
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I dunno, it's the whole debate about video refs that the FA didn't want for so many years. I don't see how you can look at a decision in VAR and then decide although it was offside it was only a few mms so we will allow it.

I'm guessing the managers who criticised the decisions were the ones who missed out on the decision.

I don't watch much live footy anymore, but I recall the World Cup was ridiculous.
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Old 30-12-2019, 22:00   #3750
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Just bear in mind the simple fact ... without VAR, Liverpool would have INCORRECTLY lost yesterday due solely to the human on field ref making fairly basic mistakes. VAR is simply there to correct such errors - as long as it does that then, for me, it should stay.
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Old 30-12-2019, 22:40   #3751
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The whole VAR thing doesn’t work for offside in the slightest because they only ever focus on the player position. They never focus on the ball leaving the attacking player.

They just seem to make a call on the ball leaving the player which we never see and then go frame by frame on the player position, a tenner says a frame by frame either side of the ball leaving the attacking players body would make the player on or offside, so is easily as important.

I can’t believe this wasn’t discovered in testing the system. Also they say the visuals VAR use are highly superior to the 48k spectrum ones we see. Why?
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Old 30-12-2019, 22:56   #3752
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The whole VAR thing doesn’t work for offside in the slightest because they only ever focus on the player position. They never focus on the ball leaving the attacking player.



They just seem to make a call on the ball leaving the player which we never see and then go frame by frame on the player position, a tenner says a frame by frame either side of the ball leaving the attacking players body would make the player on or offside, so is easily as important.



I can’t believe this wasn’t discovered in testing the system. Also they say the visuals VAR use are highly superior to the 48k spectrum ones we see. Why?
Because the bits in bold aren't true. All the measurements are based on when the ball first hits the passer's foot NOT when it leaves it.

This is what grinds my gears about the anti-VAR brigade - a lot / most of them base their opinion on incorrect information usually passed down by uneducated pundits.

As for the differences in picture quality and line thickness that VAR see compared to what is shown on TV ... it is a limitation of the TV medium.

Last edited by AdamBrunt; 30-12-2019 at 23:01.
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:05   #3753
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The fact, Adam, is that the laws were not made to be interpreted by pixels but by humans on a pitch in real time. That is a fact. The introduction of VAR has not taken this into account and is being used incorrectly to assess decisions that are not clearly and obviously wrong.
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:08   #3754
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Just bear in mind the simple fact ... without VAR, Liverpool would have INCORRECTLY lost yesterday due solely to the human on field ref making fairly basic mistakes. VAR is simply there to correct such errors - as long as it does that then, for me, it should stay.
I don't agree with this either though. You can't say they would have incorrectly lost as you just don't know. If both decisions had gone for Wolves then Liverpool would have been 1-0 down. This would have forced them to really chase the equaliser and winner - the game would have played out very differently.
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:18   #3755
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Originally Posted by AdamBrunt View Post
Because the bits in bold aren't true. All the measurements are based on when the ball first hits the passer's foot NOT when it leaves it.

This is what grinds my gears about the anti-VAR brigade - a lot / most of them base their opinion on incorrect information usually passed down by uneducated pundits.

As for the differences in picture quality and line thickness that VAR see compared to what is shown on TV ... it is a limitation of the TV medium.
So you don’t understand how it works then? 😂😂😂

Limitation of tv medium? Are you having a laugh? How do you think the VAR folks are viewing this? On some sort of holographic system?

The VAR system is fundamentally flawed and the way it has been implemented is even more flawed. It could work but not even slightly in its current form.
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:20   #3756
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The fact, Adam, is that the laws were not made to be interpreted by pixels but by humans on a pitch in real time. That is a fact. The introduction of VAR has not taken this into account and is being used incorrectly to assess decisions that are not clearly and obviously wrong.
Don't understand this comment. The offside law has not changed since VAR came in. Which part of the law are you claiming is based on on the fact it was decided by humans?

If a player is not flagged as offside when he is then that is a clear and obvious error
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:25   #3757
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Whatever
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Old 30-12-2019, 23:25   #3758
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So you don’t understand how it works then?
I understand that VAR offside decisions have got absolutely NOTHING to do with when the ball LEAVES the player's foot. LOL that is a fairly basic and fundamental misunderstanding of the system.

The TV thing is also long established since they started using it.

What can you say ... haters are gonna hate regardless.
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Old 31-12-2019, 01:49   #3759
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I understand that VAR offside decisions have got absolutely NOTHING to do with when the ball LEAVES the player's foot. LOL that is a fairly basic and fundamental misunderstanding of the system.

The TV thing is also long established since they started using it.

What can you say ... haters are gonna hate regardless.
Offside has EVERYTHING to do when the ball is played. You can't just pick a moment and not show it. This is why it doesn't work, you can't get technical lines out and be mm perfect without doing the same at other points.

If you don't understand this I'm amazed you understand the offside rule fun stop.
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Old 31-12-2019, 01:50   #3760
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The TV thing is also long established since they started using it.
Please explain this utter hogwash of a sentence.
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