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Old 28-05-2019, 16:37   #1141
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The ending concerning Dany wasn't bad as far as I was concerned, it was the rush to get there that made it weaker than it should have been.
I didn't have a problem with her burning the city, just we could have seen her going down that path a bit more subtly over a longer season.

In the last 2 seasons all the character development seemed to end and it was a rush to the next big spectacle. I understand some of the issues the writers must have had but can't help thinking seasons 7 & 8 could easily have kept the same basic plotting and had another season or at least two extended seasons in there to pace and plot it better.

It certainly ended weaker than most of it ran for as far as I was concerned, not the disaster Sons of Anarchy ended on or, even worse, Dexter, but nowhere near it's best.
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Old 28-05-2019, 17:53   #1142
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Indeed. When Rob Stark died no one complained about his character arc. It was all 'oohh, how daring!'
Rob Stark didn't suddenly become evil out of nowhere and slaughter half of the North before being killed off, did he?
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Old 28-05-2019, 17:56   #1143
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Rob Stark didn't suddenly become evil out of nowhere and slaughter half of the North before being killed off, did he?
Out of nowhere?

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Old 28-05-2019, 17:59   #1144
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Yes, relatively speaking. The books developed Dany's darker side a little with all the talk of "waking the dragon", but the TV show barely touched upon it. Yes she was alienated in season 8, but there's a HUGE leap between simple alienation in a hostile land to commiting genocide and becoming this weird facist dictator with an evil army that seems to be capable of cloning itself and multiplying at will given the amount of Dothraki and Unsullied there appeared to be by the end of the show compared to how many there appeared to be left in episode 4.
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Old 28-05-2019, 18:06   #1145
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The red wedding was well done and built up, it can't be compared to "mad dany" in s8
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Old 28-05-2019, 18:28   #1146
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Yeh in S1 her brother was clearly the mad one and she wasn't. Suddenly by season 8 she has now gone crazy herself. Probably didn't help having a lame romantic plot in there as her many story arc for a season.
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Old 28-05-2019, 18:28   #1147
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Yes, relatively speaking. The books developed Dany's darker side a little with all the talk of "waking the dragon", but the TV show barely touched upon it. Yes she was alienated in season 8, but there's a HUGE leap between simple alienation in a hostile land to commiting genocide and becoming this weird facist dictator with an evil army that seems to be capable of cloning itself and multiplying at will given the amount of Dothraki and Unsullied there appeared to be by the end of the show compared to how many there appeared to be left in episode 4.
She did something a bit ruthless and chilling in virtually every season, albeit not on that scale

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Old 28-05-2019, 18:31   #1148
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Yes she did, and every single time it was kinda justified and so barely hinted at her becoming the next mad ruler.

I only have to ask one question: If Dany's turn was so meticulously developed and obvious to you, why didn't you predict it long ago in these threads?
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Old 28-05-2019, 18:37   #1149
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Her brother was a **** and power hungry but not mad on killing millions of people level

Also Dany had never really killed innocents before this, she killed slave masters and armies that oppose her but she wanted to be loved by the people. Also she gave choices to her armies to follow her or they can have their freedom
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Old 28-05-2019, 18:50   #1150
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Not sure what happened with her army, did they come back to life after the Winterfell battle? The horsemen were the first wave of the attack, they'd have been slaughtered to the last man
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Old 28-05-2019, 20:56   #1151
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I only have to ask one question: If Dany's turn was so meticulously developed and obvious to you, why didn't you predict it long ago in these threads?
Just because we didn't expect something, doesn't mean it wasn't telegraphed beforehand.

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Old 28-05-2019, 20:58   #1152
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My wife decided to start watching from the beginning earlier this year, so far she has not got much past the Red Wedding, probably 6 episodes later and she commented that Dany is "a bit mad", not knowing anything of later episodes or the ending.

Must say I thought the madness was building over quite a time.
When I catch one of these earlier episodes whilst she's watching them, there a little bits here and there which point to what happened in the final series so I for one am not too disappointed.

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Old 28-05-2019, 20:58   #1153
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Also Dany had never really killed innocents before this, she killed slave masters and armies that oppose her but she wanted to be loved by the people. Also she gave choices to her armies to follow her or they can have their freedom
Even Walder Frey didn't kill his P. O. W. and he was willing to break the Guest right

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Old 28-05-2019, 22:29   #1154
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Yeah it's extremely easy to watch the final season and then go back through the show with the benefit of hindsight and say "oh there were signs everywhere that Dany was gonna go mental" when you're looking specifically for every minute little hint that might be dropped - but here's the thing: These moments need to register as foreshadowing for a potential meltdown at the time of watching, NOT little nuggets of potential foreshadowing that can only be understood when you rewatch the series.Yes she's been coldblooded at times, but at the time of watching this never hinted AT ALL at her becoming a genocidal despot, they suggested that she was developing the ruthlessness and mettle needed to conquer a hostile Westeros.

Not once in the past as far as I can remember has anyone on these boards picked up on those moments and suggested "I think she's gonna lose her mind at some point", which gets back to my point above. They did not develop this extremely drastic change in character enough, it was always little subtle hints that maybe, just maybe she'll go one further later down the line, but in the meantime we'll sit through hours and hours of footage of her being a caring, benevolent ruler.
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Old 29-05-2019, 00:23   #1155
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Yeah it's extremely easy to watch the final season and then go back through the show with the benefit of hindsight and say "oh there were signs everywhere that Dany was gonna go mental" when you're looking specifically for every minute little hint that might be dropped - but here's the thing: These moments need to register as foreshadowing for a potential meltdown at the time of watching, NOT little nuggets of potential foreshadowing that can only be understood when you rewatch the series.Yes she's been coldblooded at times, but at the time of watching this never hinted AT ALL at her becoming a genocidal despot, they suggested that she was developing the ruthlessness and mettle needed to conquer a hostile Westeros.

Not once in the past as far as I can remember has anyone on these boards picked up on those moments and suggested "I think she's gonna lose her mind at some point", which gets back to my point above. They did not develop this extremely drastic change in character enough, it was always little subtle hints that maybe, just maybe she'll go one further later down the line, but in the meantime we'll sit through hours and hours of footage of her being a caring, benevolent ruler.
You're right, nobody did, at least not until after episode 4 of this season.

Although some people spotted the hints:
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My wife decided to start watching from the beginning earlier this year, so far she has not got much past the Red Wedding, probably 6 episodes later and she commented that Dany is "a bit mad", not knowing anything of later episodes or the ending.

Must say I thought the madness was building over quite a time.
When I catch one of these earlier episodes whilst she's watching them, there a little bits here and there which point to what happened in the final series so I for one am not too disappointed.

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Old 29-05-2019, 05:20   #1156
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Rob Stark didn't suddenly become evil out of nowhere and slaughter half of the North before being killed off, did he?
I was thinking more about Jamie Lannister's character arc stopping suddenly, and people complaining that it didn't go how they wanted.
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Old 29-05-2019, 06:27   #1157
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20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
...
24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house.
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Old 29-05-2019, 06:28   #1158
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The thing is the show runners didn't know how the show was going to end, as they had to speak to Martin to get the basic ideas of the ending. It seems it was recent thing. Emilia Clarke has said if she knew they she could of changed how she played the character. I think looking back at past seasons some on the internet are trying to look she was mad along but imo its bit of stretch (the writers run out of source material around season 4 or 5)

Also its not at all, "people complaining that it didn't get the character endings they wanted". Its just people saying this ending didn't make sense as it felt so rushed. Like the Dorthraki, one of the showrunners said the battle of winterfell was the end of them and seemed to get wiped out almost but at KL, there is loads of them but iirc nothing is mentioned about them in the last half of final ep.
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Old 29-05-2019, 09:55   #1159
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It is a little bit of a stretch to see that is how she would turn out. But I also agree it is always there.

1. She has always wanted to be loved by her people, she really wasn't getting that in Westeros. It's a little different previously, she was freeing slaves. But as Jorah used to say to her, to the average man on the street, it doesn't really matter who sits on the iron throne.
2. There was always a threat of a dragon burning at any points if people didn't do as she said.
3. She never really had much advice until Tyrion turned up and started moralising to her.
4. The clues were there, burning alive Sams family.

That being said, they wasted opportunities to show her a little more, she spent much of the previous season in an awkward romantic plot. Also she needed to keep everyone together until the end, would have been a little better if Jon Snow simply needed her dragons to defeat the King, rather than being her massive ally.
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Old 29-05-2019, 10:54   #1160
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Yep, agree. I don't have any sense of 'entitlement' just disappointment.

Given all the 'Oh NO! WTF!' genuine surprise/shock moments from previous seasons, and even accepting Dany's too-sudden build-up of hatred to massacre so many innocents, in that 1 minute whilst sat on the dragon on the wall (rather than just blazing a trail on her way to the Keep, the real source of her wrath) ...

My main disappointment is how, given all the possible outcomes, they seemed to choose the weakest of all the possible outcomes -
- ringing of the BELLS - what does that mean ? (Remind us again).
- 2 people dying (almost offscreen) whilst in a romantic embrace (Twilight-like?).
- a third person being embraced and getting an (unseen) knifing (Shakespearean?).
- Tyrion conveniently finds his siblings in the ruined city, under 1 layer of brick. Poor writing.
- afterwards, no Dothraki anger at Tyrion or Jon. Poor writing.
- after a quick chat from the imprisoned Imp, everyone amicably agrees on Bran (and for Sanasa to fly solo) for a happy ending. Pathetic writing.
- and ... Arya's symbolic departure on an unkillable unspookable white horse went nowhere !
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