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Old 16-02-2017, 10:35   #1
jpig
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Arsene Wenger - success or failure?

I wanted to take this out of the Arsenal thread (if there even is one) because it's about more than one club: it's about what 'success' is in football these days.

After being tanked last night, 5-1, he's got an uphill struggle to win back lots of Arsenal fans this morning and there seems to be a feeling that his time is up at Arsenal. But I can't work out if he's been a success or failure.

Because Arsenal are not my club, I look at their constant Champions League qualification and think he's done a good job, but they haven't looked like winning it, or anything in fact, for years. The last great Arsenal teams were the Vierra / Henry ones and that seems like a lifetime ago.

They've got pots of money, charge the highest ticket prices in the Premier League and fill their new stadium every week but you never really associate them with signing any of the top, top players. If I was an Arsenal fan, I think I'd be a bit fed up too. Manchester City have come from nowhere and eclipsed them in the transfer market, even Chelsea out-perform them. I see Arsenal as competing for the same players as Liverpool or Spurs, whereas I think the top players look to City and Chelsea and (just, although we're losing it) United. Why can't Arsenal compete, when they come with that 'guarantee' of Champions League?

So overall, as much as I respect Wenger, I think he's been treading water and his legacy has been dented because of it. Will he be remembered as a 'great' manager? I'm not sure.
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Old 16-02-2017, 10:57   #2
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I'd love to qualify for the CL year in and year out, as a Forest fan I'd take going to a match and not expecting to get stuffed.

To me his success may not be felt until after he has left, couple of years in the wilderness, a new manager demanding £400m to make it a success, then doing a LVG.

From the club perspective, I'd guess a fantastic job, money, not costing a lot, etc.

As with all new managers and probably why they've been put off a Pep or a Jose, it's not their wages but the demands of funds, nobody is going to come to Arsenal and not say it's a complete rebuild.
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Old 16-02-2017, 12:19   #3
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He's been a consistent success, no doubt

They've been eclipsed by money no object football clubs, whereas Arsenal are financially viable. Unfortunately the fans want more than that.

As above, I suspect they'll get a rude awakening with his replacement.
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Old 16-02-2017, 12:37   #4
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He's one of Arsenal's most decorated managers, but unfortunately, the game has changed in the last 10 years and either he or the club (almost certainly the latter) have failed to keep up.

The mark of success differs massively between the supporters and the board; the former aren't happy, whilst the latter are almost certainly delighted with his work.

Ultimately, he's got to be seen as a success (3 PL titles, 6 FA Cups), but every season since 2004 has tarnished things a little.
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Old 16-02-2017, 12:40   #5
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He's been a consistent success, no doubt

They've been eclipsed by money no object football clubs, whereas Arsenal are financially viable. Unfortunately the fans want more than that.

As above, I suspect they'll get a rude awakening with his replacement.
This.

As far as modern success goes Arsenal tick all the boxes, top four every season and Champions League participation which ultimately earns the club money.

Arsenal have been stuck with a board and/or manager who don't like to spend big on one player, and although sometimes this has worked out fine, Henry, Sanchez, Bergkamp etc, these days they can't compete with clubs that do.

With Wenger you had winning but now just have stability - but there are many fans of clubs that would be happy with just that, your biggest issue is if he does go, what happens next.
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Old 16-02-2017, 17:42   #6
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I always used to think fans were generally against teams like Man City just coming in with big money and buying titles, turns out though most fans just seem to be happy when it's happening to their team.

As Man City and Chelsea have found out, it might work for a while, but spending big causes problems, everyone wants the big money and you attract a certain kind of player. The money is spent and success is demanded, which leads to a churn of managers who can't meet the high expectations.

They do well, then the expectations are changed. Always on the hunt for a better manager. Big money gets spent, does it mean they have better players? Pogba?

I think they've got as good a manager as they'll ever get. They'll realise that when they're struggling to get into the Champions League.
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Old 16-02-2017, 17:50   #7
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Successful by any reasonable standard. Proper football club run on a sustainable basis. Decent football on the pitch. No financial doping. A fair amount of silverware. Fans demanding success should just go and support a club that's willing to cheat their way to success.
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Old 16-02-2017, 18:07   #8
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I say that a fair bit to Forest fans as well, if you want constant winning and fighting for the Premier League, this isn't the football club for you, go and support Chelsea.
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Old 17-02-2017, 09:34   #9
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As a lifelong Arsenal fan I can't look at him any other way than a success. Not only did he bring trophies he brought a style of football that is admired by many, and that will never change. He’s a smart guy who has stuck to his laurels and conducted himself with dignity. Where the waters get a bit muddied are the last 10+ years and the constant top 4 finishes. I’m not a fan of the Champions League. I grew up in an era when there wasn't European football; I missed the glory years of the old European cup, the Real Madrid of the 50’s, the great Ajax team or the English teams of the 70’s and 80’s. It holds no romance for me. I just see it as a competition that’s there to fill the pockets of corrupt football officials and launder dirty oil money. You could argue similar about the Premier League, but I would take a Premier League title over the Champions League every day of the week. As a fan it’s where my heart lies. It’s where Michael Thomas charged through the midfield, It’s Steve Bould setting up Tony Adams, it’s the Invincible’s. I buy a (very expensive) season ticket to watch league football. And there lies the problem. We don’t look like winning the Premier League, and the way things are I don’t see that changing. In the late 80’s and early to mid-90’s we had success, and we also had failure, and some seasons we even finished below Tottenham. I’d go to games not knowing what to expect. It was a bit of the unknown, not like now where everyone knows. We might change managers and it might be a failure, but it may be a success. We might not get Champions League football for a gazillion years in a row, but we might win the premier League. We might get relegated, go into administration, fall off the face of the planet but I’ll still be a fan and I’ll go to games with hope. All things must pass.
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Old 17-02-2017, 10:47   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbullivant View Post
I say that a fair bit to Forest fans as well, if you want constant winning and fighting for the Premier League, this isn't the football club for you, go and support Chelsea.
Forest are circa £100m in debt with a mental owner who won't let the club go unless it's on his own ridiculous terms.

I feel much more sorry for them than I do the idiots that spout off on the Arsenal TV youtube channel, who haven't got a clue what it's like to support a club with actual problems.
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Old 17-02-2017, 15:25   #11
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It's always ridiculously in debt (Forest that is), we have always spent money we don't have, I have no idea why anyone would want to own it as we have the most fickle fans in the world.

One thing I would say for Arsenal, they never seemed that bothered about winning a trophy, league cup, fa cup, etc. Bit of silverware never goes a miss, but it's all about finishing 4th in the league.

The same can be said about most PL clubs tbh, they always seem to have a bigger priority, usually financial
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Old 17-02-2017, 19:00   #12
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First 8 years brilliant.

Middle 4/5 difficult due to stadium move.

Last 10 have been like groundhog day. Same failings season after season. Wenger is on £8m a year and completely unaccountable to anyone at the club and runs it like his own pet project, keeping faith with overpaid players who has simply not developed under his stewardship, Walcott being the prime example.

His transfer dealings have been a complete shambles for the last 15 years, dithering over signings and then overpaying massively for average players.

As long as he finishes 4th the board don't care. There's a lot of talk of his "loyalty", turning down Real Madrid etc... He wouldn't last 5 minutes at Real Madrid.
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